#26 August 14th, 2005 08:58 AM

thecatman

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

I don't really have the energy today to go into why I think that is, especially since it will most certainly be a feminist diatribe that will offend the sensitve anti-feminists out there (maybe another day!), but suffice it to say, for me it's a very viable explanation of why ISM may have smooth ladies more often than furry ones.

It's interesting that you're the first to bring up the feminist angle.  This was actually my first thought, though I probably had a bit of a different interpretation than you did.  My thought was that many of the people who post at ISM are somewhere on a spectrum between the more traditional/"radical" feminists (a la Vagina Monologues, etc.) and the "pro-sex" feminists (a la Betty Dodson, Suzie Bright, etc.)  And there's likely a lot of more apolitical/afeminist women posting too.

So my interpretation was that shaved pubes tends to be in vogue now a days for the second two groups and that they're also more likely to do the more explicit shoots.  And conversely, pube-shaving is often frowned upon in the rad-fem scene (seen as a form of "patriarchal oppression"), and the women in this group are also probably less likely to do more explicit shoots.

But I find ProfessorSM's interpretation quite compelling too...

vadek28

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

I've just joined and I'm so pleased to see so much fuzz around.  I get fed up of sanitized models with plastic skin. It's lovely to see the natural look again.  It's there for a reason, after all.

Pvidal

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

I think it's worth remembering that pubic hair removal for women is not a new thing, an exclusively porn-fuelled phenomenon, it's been around for ever.  Some middle eastern and African cultures have always preferred the look and feel of a smooth/bald vagina, and if you study art history, you can look at any classical nude painted or sculpted before the 20th century and none of the models had pubic hair.  It wasn’t just that artists like Rubens and Botticelli and Michelangelo pretended they couldn’t see it, or were in danger of being censored if they showed it, their models didn’t have any.  Showing pubic hair in general wasn't banned by the church or society, because you can see pubes on most men in old paintings and sculptures, but bald pubes were fashionable for women for centuries, right up until the Victorians.  I have a copy of a beautiful drawing by Degas from about 1860 of 'Nude lying on her back' with her legs open towards the artist, and her pussy is completely bald.  The repressive Victorians covered women up so much, nobody EVER saw women naked, in many cases, not even their husbands, and the practice of body hair removal lapsed.  I think that was a shame. 

It's always seemed much more OK for men to be rough hairy creatures - even very hairy chests can be attractive to women - but removal of other body hair on women has been a big part of the beauty industry for half a century or more.  Most women don't like their legs to fluffy, few in the English speaking world will go for long without de-bushing their armpits, and lipwaxing is very common - and all these grooming actions are not just because porn-soaked men insist on it!   So why not pubes as well?  Aesthetically, I dislike body hair of any kind on women, it just looks ...wrong.  Their silky skin, the flowing lines of their flesh, their gentle curves and crevices, I love them all, but those vestigial patches of bristly thatch are a visual and tactile interruption.  Personally, I am delighted that more and more women are taking the lot off. 

I think Internet porn has had at least one positive effect, it has made both kinds of oral sex more visible and more popular.  Women quite rightly expect their men to go down on them more often nowadays, and its hard to dispute that a smooth pussy tastes better and feels better for both parties to the event.

wantingscott

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

Pvidal,
i agree that oral sex "girlies" should be given to your woman as MUCH as possible, BUT i like my Christine's hairy peachfarm. I joke, and we laugh after, that pulling the hairs out of my mouth is like flossing after a meal...

Scott

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that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

I think it's worth remembering that pubic hair removal for women is not a new thing, an exclusively porn-fuelled phenomenon, it's been around for ever.  Some middle eastern and African cultures have always preferred the look and feel of a smooth/bald vagina, and if you study art history, you can look at any classical nude painted or sculpted before the 20th century and none of the models had pubic hair.  It wasn’t just that artists like Rubens and Botticelli and Michelangelo pretended they couldn’t see it, or were in danger of being censored if they showed it, their models didn’t have any.  Showing pubic hair in general wasn't banned by the church or society, because you can see pubes on most men in old paintings and sculptures, but bald pubes were fashionable for women for centuries, right up until the Victorians.  I have a copy of a beautiful drawing by Degas from about 1860 of 'Nude lying on her back' with her legs open towards the artist, and her pussy is completely bald.  The repressive Victorians covered women up so much, nobody EVER saw women naked, in many cases, not even their husbands, and the practice of body hair removal lapsed.  I think that was a shame. 

It's always seemed much more OK for men to be rough hairy creatures - even very hairy chests can be attractive to women - but removal of other body hair on women has been a big part of the beauty industry for half a century or more.  Most women don't like their legs to fluffy, few in the English speaking world will go for long without de-bushing their armpits, and lipwaxing is very common - and all these grooming actions are not just because porn-soaked men insist on it!   So why not pubes as well?  Aesthetically, I dislike body hair of any kind on women, it just looks ...wrong.  Their silky skin, the flowing lines of their flesh, their gentle curves and crevices, I love them all, but those vestigial patches of bristly thatch are a visual and tactile interruption.  Personally, I am delighted that more and more women are taking the lot off. 

I think Internet porn has had at least one positive effect, it has made both kinds of oral sex more visible and more popular.  Women quite rightly expect their men to go down on them more often nowadays, and its hard to dispute that a smooth pussy tastes better and feels better for both parties to the event.

I think it's worth noting that hair removal is not a new thing for either sex. A lot of male nudes from archaic, classical and rennaissance art were devoid of pubic hair, I know the ancient greek males used to remove the hair from there bodies and cover themselves in olive oil, then have a good wrestle to top it all off...hmmm... The women have been refered to as performing the practice of "singeing their triangles" in plays by aristophanes from 5th century Athens. As far as felatio goes the same applies as does to cunnilingus (did I spell that right) it's possibly a bit easier without the hair especially if your deep throating or ball sucking as well (excuse my crude expression), but it doesn't register as a significant problem with either sex, as far as I can say, having done both. Not many women, if indeed any have hair growing out of their clitoris or in their vagina so it's not like your getting a whole mouth full of fuzz when you go down, unles your sucking on the labia and licking round the anus as well.

However, when you get down to the nitty gritty I think you'll find most girls are not into facial hair on men, and are generally grossed out by serious back hair. So it's a two way street. Men remove hair and so do women. Fads, fashions, whatever... personally I like my hair, arm pits too.

jayhammer

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

I think it's worth noting that hair removal is not a new thing for either sex. A lot of male nudes from archaic, classical and rennaissance art were devoid of pubic hair, I know the ancient greek males used to remove the hair from there bodies and cover themselves in olive oil, then have a good wrestle to top it all off...hmmm... The women have been refered to as performing the practice of "singeing their triangles" in plays by aristophanes from 5th century Athens. As far as felatio goes the same applies as does to cunnilingus (did I spell that right) it's possibly a bit easier without the hair especially if your deep throating or ball sucking as well (excuse my crude expression), but it doesn't register as a significant problem with either sex, as far as I can say, having done both. Not many women, if indeed any have hair growing out of their clitoris or in their vagina so it's not like your getting a whole mouth full of fuzz when you go down, unles your sucking on the labia and licking round the anus as well.

However, when you get down to the nitty gritty I think you'll find most girls are not into facial hair on men, and are generally grossed out by serious back hair. So it's a two way street. Men remove hair and so do women. Fads, fashions, whatever... personally I like my hair, arm pits too.

jayhammer

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

I think it's worth noting that hair removal is not a new thing for either sex. A lot of male nudes from archaic, classical and rennaissance art were devoid of pubic hair, I know the ancient greek males used to remove the hair from there bodies and cover themselves in olive oil, then have a good wrestle to top it all off...hmmm... The women have been refered to as performing the practice of "singeing their triangles" in plays by aristophanes from 5th century Athens. As far as felatio goes the same applies as does to cunnilingus (did I spell that right) it's possibly a bit easier without the hair especially if your deep throating or ball sucking as well (excuse my crude expression), but it doesn't register as a significant problem with either sex, as far as I can say, having done both. Not many women, if indeed any have hair growing out of their clitoris or in their vagina so it's not like your getting a whole mouth full of fuzz when you go down, unles your sucking on the labia and licking round the anus as well.

However, when you get down to the nitty gritty I think you'll find most girls are not into facial hair on men, and are generally grossed out by serious back hair. So it's a two way street. Men remove hair and so do women. Fads, fashions, whatever... personally I like my hair, arm pits too.

As usual Liandra is right on the money, pubic hair doesn't really cause any problems with oral, I also think arm pit hair is sexy on women, the only hair that I don't find as attractive on a woman is coarse black leg hair all the rest is beutiful and of couse natural. Liandra are you planning on any new folios?

vadek28

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

More pubic hair and less piercings, please.

It seems to be a feature of the girls who are happy to expose themselves in ISM that they have bits of metal protruding from their faces and bodies.  Maybe it's only these girls who have exhibitionistic tendencies?

Porcelain

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

Personally, I don't think that anyone has the right to say that piercings/ pubic hair should or should not exist. If someone thinks that it whatever they wish to do to themselves makes them more comfortable, or feel sexier, then that's what it should be about. Nobody should shave because someone tells them to, and it's always nice to see pubic hair if someone's comfortable with it. I shave because it's more hygenic, and I think it looks good. Someone's pubic choice will always be sexy if they've done it for the right reasons.

vadek28

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

Don't get me wrong, Porcelain, I'm just expressing a preference - and even that's not set in stone.  I agree that there are no hard and fast rules.  I'm really in no position to dictate one way or another!  I'm just happy to be here. 

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

As usual Liandra is right on the money, pubic hair doesn't really cause any problems with oral, I also think arm pit hair is sexy on women, the only hair that I don't find as attractive on a woman is coarse black leg hair all the rest is beutiful and of couse natural. Liandra are you planning on any new folios?

I find armpit hair really erotic on both sexes. I'm not sure why. I have to agree with the leg hair thing, and this is where gender comes seriously into opposites for me. I grew all my hair but could not get used to the leg hair, and on girls I do prefer smoothe legs, though I am trying to retrain myself. However, on men I like the hair to be quite thick on their legs, I don't know why, I don't really have preferences about chests, but I don't like beards, not even small ones, or moustaches, or back hair. I'm not saying that I would complain if someone had it, I am thinking only about physically aesthetic ideals for me...

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

As usual Liandra is right on the money, pubic hair doesn't really cause any problems with oral, I also think arm pit hair is sexy on women, the only hair that I don't find as attractive on a woman is coarse black leg hair all the rest is beutiful and of couse natural. Liandra are you planning on any new folios?

I find armpit hair really erotic on both sexes. I'm not sure why. I have to agree with the leg hair thing, and this is where gender comes seriously into opposites for me. I grew all my hair but could not get used to the leg hair, and on girls I do prefer smoothe legs, though I am trying to retrain myself. However, on men I like the hair to be quite thick on their legs, I don't know why, I don't really have preferences about chests, but I don't like beards, not even small ones, or moustaches, or back hair. I'm not saying that I would complain if someone had it, I am thinking only about physically aesthetic ideals for me...

I have done a new folio, it's all about hair and hair removal too. I did it just before Zilles shaving vids came up on the site, great minds think alike eh? I used a different method to remove my hair though, and a different medium to show the process through. I don't think it will be up for at least a month or two though.

Belgareth

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

I find armpit hair really erotic on both sexes. I'm not sure why. I have to agree with the leg hair thing, and this is where gender comes seriously into opposites for me. I grew all my hair but could not get used to the leg hair, and on girls I do prefer smoothe legs, though I am trying to retrain myself. However, on men I like the hair to be quite thick on their legs, I don't know why, I don't really have preferences about chests, but I don't like beards, not even small ones, or moustaches, or back hair. I'm not saying that I would complain if someone had it, I am thinking only about physically aesthetic ideals for me...

I have done a new folio, it's all about hair and hair removal too. I did it just before Zilles shaving vids came up on the site, great minds think alike eh? I used a different method to remove my hair though, and a different medium to show the process through. I don't think it will be up for at least a month or two though.

Liandra - much as I would love to see another one of your masterpieces - I am confused. I thought you said you were into low maintenance but, from my own experience, hair removal ain't anything like low maintenance ;-)

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Markk02474

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

but, from my own experience, hair removal ain't anything like low maintenance ;-)

...even a Queenslander can do it ( judgeing by the XXXX joke)!

Even shaving techniques for a man and not getting ingrown hairs works for women. Exfoliating post-shave really helps - skin brush, pumice stone, apricot shell scrub, glycolic acid products all do the job, but the last can be harsh. I use medicated St. Ives facial scrub which has the apricott shell grounds and salicylic acid. Its in acne washes and fights bacteria, to keep the hair folicles from getting infected and red.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

Liandra - much as I would love to see another one of your masterpieces - I am confused. I thought you said you were into low maintenance but, from my own experience, hair removal ain't anything like low maintenance ;-)

You're totally right it wasn't low maintenance, it was one great big sticky painful mess, I won't ever be doing it again. It was just a one off. I had been growing all my body hair for about 6-7 months. I've never had hairy armpits or legs before. Then I had to go out in skirts and bikinis to test my resolve. I did the shoot to and I waxed off, because I've never done that before either, but I got half way through and had to stop, because I really hurt myself. I finished it a couple of days later. It's nearly all grown back now. I'm hoping I'll be more comfortable with my hairy legs the second time around.

MrPicMe

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

...Live and let live. I would be much more excited about a folio set that gives less concern to pubic hair, and a lot more emphasis on photo quality, and imagination...

KEEP ROCK'N GIRLS!

Belgareth

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

You're totally right it wasn't low maintenance, it was one great big sticky painful mess, I won't ever be doing it again. It was just a one off. I had been growing all my body hair for about 6-7 months. I've never had hairy armpits or legs before. Then I had to go out in skirts and bikinis to test my resolve. I did the shoot to and I waxed off, because I've never done that before either, but I got half way through and had to stop, because I really hurt myself. I finished it a couple of days later. It's nearly all grown back now. I'm hoping I'll be more comfortable with my hairy legs the second time around.

I now have visions of a shoot with a subject who is wishing that she had come up with a different idea.

I know how much waxing can hurt! Some people are lucky and their hair folicles are only to happy to give up their contents without a fight. Although I don't have a lot of body hair, I am not one of those people and I'm convinced that mine were superglued in place. It REALLY HURT and afterward my skin looked like I'd had an argument with the occupants of an apiary.

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liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

...Live and let live. I would be much more excited about a folio set that gives less concern to pubic hair, and a lot more emphasis on photo quality, and imagination...

KEEP ROCK'N GIRLS!

Good for you, but the thing with ISM is that I get to choose where I want to put the emphasis on in my folio. However, I'd say there's plenty of folio's on ISM for you to get excited about, which should prevent you from missing the qualities that will be lacking for you when mine comes up. Maybe you should do a folio youself. If you're game, put it on a disc, send me a private message and I'll give you an address to send it to.

Li

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

I now have visions of a shoot with a subject who is wishing that she had come up with a different idea.

I know how much waxing can hurt! Some people are lucky and their hair folicles are only to happy to give up their contents without a fight. Although I don't have a lot of body hair, I am not one of those people and I'm convinced that mine were superglued in place. It REALLY HURT and afterward my skin looked like I'd had an argument with the occupants of an apiary.

B- you've never had a truer vision. Yeah, my hair likes being in my skin, infact more than my skin likes staying on my body, as my skin prefered to rip rather than give it up.

MrPicMe

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

Maybe you should do a folio youself. If you're game, put it on a disc, send me a private message and I'll give you an address to send it to.Li

Here's your message... where do I send it?

jayhammer

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

Good for you, but the thing with ISM is that I get to choose where I want to put the emphasis on in my folio. However, I'd say there's plenty of folio's on ISM for you to get excited about, which should prevent you from missing the qualities that will be lacking for you when mine comes up. Maybe you should do a folio youself. If you're game, put it on a disc, send me a private message and I'll give you an address to send it to.

Li

Liandra are you asking Pic Me to do a folio of himself? ooch!  or of one of his models?
You know when you challenge a Narcissistic Personality Disordered individual he is going to accept the challenge with vigor,  One of the criteria of this disorder is "They routinely overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments often appearing boastful and pretenious". I think this fits Mr Pic Me fairly well.  I think this subject is best left to those of us who enjoy the natural look and want to compliment the folios that show it in all thier glory. Liandra keep up the good fight your awesome.

Belgareth

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

Liandra are you asking Pic Me to do a folio of himself? ooch!  or of one of his models?
You know when you challenge a Narcissistic Personality Disordered individual he is going to accept the challenge with vigor,  One of the criteria of this disorder is "They routinely overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments often appearing boastful and pretenious". I think this fits Mr Pic Me fairly well.  I think this subject is best left to those of us who enjoy the natural look and want to compliment the folios that show it in all thier glory. Liandra keep up the good fight your awesome.

In all fairness to MrPM he WAS in this discussion at the beginning and he WAS asked by Li to submit a folio. Me thinks it just took him a long time to get around to responding.

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jayhammer

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

In all fairness to MrPM he WAS in this discussion at the beginning and he WAS asked by Li to submit a folio. Me thinks it just took him a long time to get around to responding.

Ok I think you are  right, and of course everyone has the right to comment in any forum, I think I was probally just trying to get pic me worked up, evidently it didn't work, and your also right Lindra did ask him for a folio I was just wondering if she wanted him to do a folio of himself or of other women he shoots.

Pvidal

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

Good for you, but the thing with ISM is that I get to choose where I want to put the emphasis on in my folio. However, I'd say there's plenty of folio's on ISM for you to get excited about, which should prevent you from missing the qualities that will be lacking for you when mine comes up.
Li

The exquisite Liandra reminds us again what makes ISM so fascinating.  It isn't just the aesthetic or erotic pleasures of the images that are the results from each shoot (considerable though those pleasures are), it is the interesting range of choices the artists make that they can only make on this site because nowhere else would they have most of the control, as well as the insights into their personalities and attitudes and motivations they reveal along the way.  A big thank you to all the artists for their courage and their candour and for sharing so much of themselves with all of us.

voyeur2

Member

Re: Pubic Hair Revisited

Liandra are you asking Pic Me to do a folio of himself? ooch!  or of one of his models?
You know when you challenge a Narcissistic Personality Disordered individual he is going to accept the challenge with vigor,  One of the criteria of this disorder is "They routinely overestimate their abilities and inflate their accomplishments often appearing boastful and pretenious". I think this fits Mr Pic Me fairly well.  I think this subject is best left to those of us who enjoy the natural look and want to compliment the folios that show it in all thier glory. Liandra keep up the good fight your awesome.

The folio is to be of himself, I believe - as Liandra has a project under way to shoot some male folios to see if they can do it well, and if it shows some sort of new aspect to male self identity that appeals to the public enough to incorporate a site for the shoots.

I for one have had disagreements with MPM in the past, but have never seen a folio he has shot so I have, really, no opinion yet of his ability.  My expectations are another thing; but I will not share them, as - in many things - people tend to see what they expect to see despite the actual thing right in front of their face.  I try to retain an awareness of that but do not want to colour other's viewing by an expectation that does nothing but amuse my vanity.

I think it would be fairest to let his camera shoot off where his mouth has, and judge the results AFTER seeing the shoot.  And in the context that it is MPM's own view of himself, not what we or Liandra are asking for.

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Have I ever lied to you before?