#1 November 29th, 2006 06:56 AM

zille

Member

Art vs. "natural"

Okay, what LeoBloom commented on my newest set has really got me thinking.

If you haven't seen it, here it is:

   LeoBloom says...
There seem to be two Zilles: the Zille of the videos (warm, friendly, amusing, spontaneous and witty) and the Zille of the photo-sets, where everything is calculated, calibrated and measured, and the beautifully crafted images present an aloof and sphinx-like beauty, which holds one off even as one admires it. When are we going to get the first Zille in a photo-set, one that will throw caution to the winds, and with a joyous 'Whoo-hoo!' snap away as she lets it all hang out?

Here's my reply:

   zille says...
Leo -- I'm a photographer, first. The "Zille of the photo-sets" you see is "Zille the photographer," an artist paying attention to the images she is creating, who as composition and shapes and color on her mind. Although I don't think my stills are particularly "aloof." If I'm doing "aloof," you'll know it! The "Zille of the videos" is just me not having to worry too much about what I am doing. But, I still work at keeping things warm, friendly, amusing, spontaneous in my stills. Would you call image 71 "calculated and aloof"? But that's the thing about me sharing myself in my images. You see all of me -- and being a photographer, and artist is a HUGE part of me. That Zille you mention first is who I am much of the time. People take it as aloof, but it's simply me being in my mind. I'm a more than a bit of a geek, and while I do have a more extroverted side of myself, that does not mean it's the real me. It's just 30-40% of me.

But, it's gotten me thinking.  People these days are so distrustful of artistry.  They think art = artifical.  There is this fetish for "real" and "natural," but, let me tell you, speaking as a former model who made erotica/porn for about 10 years, much -- most -- of that "real, natural" stuff is just as posed and contrived as the stuff that is glossy and artsy -- it's just a different method of making the images/videos, not a different way of thinking.

ISM is one, perhaps the only website where this is not the case.  And, here, I have been able to present images that I have made of myself, that I am really happy with, that I think shows and saves for posterity "Who-I-Am."

I'm sure Leo didn't mean to upset me, but it is a little distressing that when I do finally share and show who I am, that I get accused of holding back.  Just because I make "beautifully crafted images" doesn't mean they are not really real.  The artisty does not add a layer, a veil of untruth between me and you.  If anything, it should be the real window that opens up my soul more to your eyes.  Look how I composed an image, any image.  That tells you so many things about me, things I might not even be able to say in words, that I certainly couldn't verbalize in a video, no matter how wacky and amusing I might be.  You get to see the way I see, how my brain works, how I think I look, and how I want people to see me.  Thinking of it all, it almost becomes scary that I have exposed so much of myself.  But I can't think of that, because I've commited myself to doing this, and I don't want to change my mind, now.

Yeah, sure, I'm an artist, and so my images won't show half my body cut off unless I like how that image looks, what it shows by what it doesn't show.  My images won't be out of focus unless I like the feeling that gives to the image.  I don't just hold up a camera and point it at myself and click.  I always think about the image I'm creating.  I could do that (just "snap away") -- but it wouldn't be me, and it wouldn't capture the real me (and I wouldn't be happy sending those images in, not because they expose some hidden side of me I'm too scared to share, but for the very opposite reason: they would not be representitive of me.)  And when I take an image, and I see on the back of the camera that I've done something really cool -- well, it's a true rush of joy and "woo-hoo"s all around.  And that shows in my eyes, in my confidence as an artist, as I go to make the next image.

Just because an image doesn't look "amateur" doesn't mean there is less of a person in the image.  It is an image. Which is not the same thing as a living, breathing person.  You can catch a gorgeous girl from a bad angle and make her look only mildly attractive -- is that a true view of that girl?  A girl who is pensive can snap a shot of herself in an unusually happy moment -- does that capture who she really is?  Of course not.  But the viewer can take that image, hold on to it, build a whole myth in his/her head about that girl.  And that's fine and good -- art is also about the viewer, just as much as it's about the artist.  But the viewer can't go and get annoyed at the pensive, moody girl for not being some perpetually jubilant person.  The image wasn't a lie -- but it simply wasn't the whole truth.

That's why I'm ranting here.  I'm working on giving out the whole truth about myself.  Sure, you haven't seen me sad, you haven't seen me sick as a dog, you haven't seen me in a number of ways -- yet.  I've still got lots of image to make, lots of pieces of myself to expose.  But even if I did a set that was of me being sick as a dog -- it would still be done with artistry (breaks into grim humor considering how I would get the arc of the projectile vomit to look just so....)

I will end this rant with a picture, partially to thank anyone who has gone the distance with me on this endless rant and partially because it is an image with a whole lot of truth in it.  It's not by me, it's by my boyfriend (who is a photogapher, too.)  The story behind it is that it was shot at the end of a day of shooting porn (I was having strap-on shower sex with a gal who is an L.A. pornstar, but who is also one of the most down-to-earth and fun people I've ever met.)  I was leaning over onto the sink, not part of the shooting, and my boyfriend said, "Wait -- don't move!" and shot an image of me.  All day long I had been being extroverted, "warm, friendly, amusing, spontaneous and witty" (well, witty isn't always called for whilst fucking someone with a strap-on, although sometimes it is really called for, trust me!) and while that had been "me" (it certainly hadn't been anyone else!) the shot that was really the most "me" is much more "aloof and sphinx-like."

Now, ask yourself.  Would you believe that that is a posed, "calculated" image -- or one where I have a big grin on my face?  Because, honestly, most times I smile in image (which I hate doing) I've had to think about it, and make myself smile.  You simply cannot trust from a still image what is "truth."  You just have to decide if you like the image, and what it personally means to you.

---

~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

paintjam

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

i just don't care what you label the beautiful images you create (or anyone else for that matter), just keep on making them.

being an artist myself i USED to get bent out of shape by anyones comments.
but i gave up getting upset a long time ago.

these days i just have to create, or not create, and no matter what anyone says about my work simply does not matter.

i am sure leo meant no harm in his comments.

all to often it is EASY to become the critic, or to be taken as one because of what someone has said, or ESPECIALLY written.

honey (as you well know my dear), these days i am just the happiest human in the world to be living the life of .....

'an AMERICAN ARTIST
I haven't fucked much with the past,
But I've fucked plenty with the future.
Over the skin of silk are scars
From the splinters of stations
And walls I've caressed.

A stage is like each bolt of wood,
Like a log of Helen, is my pleasure.
I would measure the success of a night
By the way by the way by the amount of piss and seed
I could exude over the columns that nestled the P.A.

Some nights I'd surprise everybody by skipping off
With a skirt of green net sewed over
With flat metallic circles which dazzled and flashed.
The lights were violet and white.
I had an ornamental veil, but I couldn't bear to use it.

When my hair was cropped, I craved covering,
But now my hair itself is a veil,
And the scalp inside is a scalp of
A crazy and sleepy Comanche
Lies beneath this netting of the skin.

I wake up. I am lying peacefully
I am lying peacefully and my knees are open to the sun.
I desire him, and he is absolutely ready to seize me.
In heart I am a Moslem;
In heart I am an American;
In heart I am Moslem,
In heart I'm an American artist,
And I have no guilt.

I seek pleasure.
I seek the nerves under your skin.
The narrow archway; the layers;
The scroll of ancient lettuce.

We worship the flaw, the belly, the belly,
The mole on the belly of an exquisite whore.
He spared the child and spoiled the rod.
I HAVE NOT SOLD MY SOUL TO GOD'.........patti smith  babelogue

now that said, when are you gonna pose for me teehee....;)

jamie

---

'stay beautiful'

pia

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

Hello Zille
It is really nice to see you back here on the forums .. I'm not really an internet forumy type of person but i must admit that i do like to eavesdrop on the forums here sometimes and it has been some time since there was any forum discussion which has really sparked my interest. Interesting because I think that i remember a few other peoples in previous threads questioning how "real" or "genuine" your presentation of yourself in your ism shoots is. .. and i really agree with the following which you wrote ..

People these days are so distrustful of artistry. They think art = artifical. There is this fetish for "real" and "natural," but, let me tell you, speaking as a former model who made erotica/porn for about 10 years, much -- most -- of that "real, natural" stuff is just as posed and contrived as the stuff that is glossy and artsy -- it's just a different method of making the images/videos, not a different way of thinking.

and besides i think that it is foolish to assume that ism is all about showing your true self to the world anyway .. the beauty of this site is that we have the opportunity to interpret and create what we feel like creating. It is true that the real natural genre of porn can be just as superficial and untrue as any other type of porn. I think that whenever we start saying a certain thing is ideal or that things should be a certain way then the trend towards trying to attain that ideal creates a certain amount of falsness.

The image wasn't a lie -- but it simply wasn't the whole truth.

How true and i find the same thing with all aspects of expression .. words, sounds, thoughts .. because all these ways we have of expressing ourselves are so limiting and 2 dimensional in a way .. everything is constantly changing and evolving all the time anyway so what might be true in one minute is not in the next.

ok pia ssssshhhhhh ... i just got home from work and it is quite past the middle of the night and i havent slept enough for a long time and i have taken cold and flu tablets which really make me feel strange and hmmm so you got this little rant which may or may not make any sence at all. I will have to see tomorow when I am (hopefully) almost sane again.

anyway Zille i really gotta say that I love to find a new folio of yours on here and .. hmm i dunno .. i feel a kind of warm feeling towards you... and kind of silly for saying it. See i feel much more vunerable and exposed writing a little forum message like this than being naked on the internet .. thats strange isn't it?

zille

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

My god, Pia -- even over-tired and hopped up on "cold and flu tablets" (which are hard drugs indeed!) you are far more coherent and well-spoken than I will ever be!  Thank you so very much for your wonderful response!

It is really nice to see you back here on the forums .. I'm not really an internet forumy type of person but i must admit that i do like to eavesdrop on the forums here sometimes and it has been some time since there was any forum discussion which has really sparked my interest. Interesting because I think that i remember a few other peoples in previous threads questioning how "real" or "genuine" your presentation of yourself in your ism shoots is.

Actually, it was that very episode you mention that kinda chased me away from the forums for a while.  (And then I got a new boyfriend, moved, and had other things pulling me offline and into the land of the living....)

And again, thank you for de-lurking and taking the time to post!

and besides i think that it is foolish to assume that ism is all about showing your true self to the world anyway .. the beauty of this site is that we have the opportunity to interpret and create what we feel like creating. It is true that the real natural genre of porn can be just as superficial and untrue as any other type of porn. I think that whenever we start saying a certain thing is ideal or that things should be a certain way then the trend towards trying to attain that ideal creates a certain amount of falsness.

Oh, it's just so lovely to hear you say all that.  (or, "read", I suppose, but you have such a good conversational style I feel like I was talking with you.) 

Yes, once there were some "real" amateur pictures posted on the internet.  They went like hotcakes (not even sold, just passed around.)  Then Bianca's Smut Shack happened, and at first it was sort of "real" but it soon drove the rapidly expanding "amateur" market, and not having to have any sort of QC was a boon to porn-makers who wanted to slap up crappy porn sites fast and make a quick buck.

Then, years later, ISM comes along.  When I found this site, I was so excited because, as you so deftly put it, I would have the "opportunity to interpret and create what [I felt] like creating."  A challenge to an artist like me (and, errr, an exhibtionist like me....)

But I've found myself limiting myself in some respects.  I've tried to follow a more "natural" theme because I figure that's what the people who sign up for this site want.  If I had really just been shooting for me, I'd have (often) been smeared in make-up, wearing wigs and costumes, trying on new characters and personas and situations (a bit like Cindy Sherman's Complete Untitled Film Stills which influenced me early from early on.)  But if people complain I'm not sharing enough about myself now, think what it would have been like if I'd been "hiding" under wigs and make-up.  (Although again, it would have been no kind of hiding at all, just another kind of exposure.)

How true and i find the same thing with all aspects of expression .. words, sounds, thoughts .. because all these ways we have of expressing ourselves are so limiting and 2 dimensional in a way .. everything is constantly changing and evolving all the time anyway so what might be true in one minute is not in the next.

Yes, yes, yes!  That's the first thing you learn (or I learned) in a photo class.  You capture an instant, an instant only.  You are a new and different person in the next instant (although generally not by very much -- although the great photo-journalists are the ones that capture those instants that change us all by the next instant.)  So any photo I take of myself is history.  If I do a really good job, I can capture some aspect of myself that is unchanging, but those photos are likely to be the more solemn ones, not ones where I just "snap away," which would only capture a mood I was in at the time.

ok pia ssssshhhhhh ...

Oh, no "shhhhh," please!  I have loved your post and now I have to go back and re-enjoy your folios, with a new appreciation of you!     (A few minutes later:  Oh, right!  You did the breaking-and-entering video -- I loved that!  And I just adore the macrocosm shoot!  There are some simply mind-blowing shots in that!)

anyway Zille i really gotta say that I love to find a new folio of yours on here and .. hmm i dunno .. i feel a kind of warm feeling towards you... and kind of silly for saying it. See i feel much more vunerable and exposed writing a little forum message like this than being naked on the internet .. thats strange isn't it?

I feel quite the same (about the warm feeling that is!)  It is lovely making a new friend, esp. one so lovely and well-spoken.  And making that connection in a public forum -- well, does feel a bit odd, sharing that personal moment!  But I am so glad you risked exposing yourself for it!  Thank you!!!

---

~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

paulie_09

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

I've had the pleasure of shooting someone who the camera "loves" and who loves the camera. That to me is what is real and natural. For if you don't love the camera, it's not natural, and therefore unreal. Gooday

zille

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

I've had the pleasure of shooting someone who the camera "loves" and who loves the camera. That to me is what is real and natural. For if you don't love the camera, it's not natural, and therefore unreal. Gooday

Well, I do surely love the camera.  Either end of it!  Which is what is so great about ISM -- I can be on both at the same time!  What's not to love???

I'm glad to hear you've had that pleasure.  Now that I'm quitting modeling and focusing on my photography, that's a pleasure I intend to indulge in as much as possible!

(But I also love shooting people who think they hate the camera, and through the course of the shoot, make them realize that the camera does love them, and they can love being in front of it....)

---

~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

LeoBloom

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

I think the point at issue is essentially that of the art that conceals art. Not all art does, of course, but when it does I think we all particularly appreciate it, precisely because it gives a wonderful sensation of effortlessness, ease and power – as if the effects had happened almost of their own accord, as if they couldn’t help happening, and could naturally go on happening abundantly and lavishly for ever.
I think we all recognise it when we see it and prize it in all the different forms it can take. Just three very different examples:
1) There are some great actors who seem to make something happen as soon as they walk on stage, and without seeming to actually do anything at all – certainly nothing that looks obviously significant. They immediately dominate the stage without it looking as if they’re trying to d that at all. (One great actor who WASN’T in this category, by the way, was Laurence Olivier, who always let you see the effort that went into the extraordinary effects he created – and that spoilt it a bit.)
2) Byron’s great comic poem ‘Don Juan’ creates the extraordinary feat of what seems like casual improvised conversation in an extremely strict verse form. It sounds as if Byron is chatting to you after a night on the town, talking off the top of his head. Actually Byron revised the poem intensively, and all the revisions – all the art and calculation – went into creating that sensation of casual improvisation.
3) This is a great period for Wagner buffs as there have been loads of digitally remastered reissues – and in some cases first-time issues – coming out of long-lost recordings from the early ’50’s, when – most fans agree – people seemed to perform the stuff better. Again, what is striking about so much of the singing, and so unlike modern performers, is the way the music just seems to pour out of them – almost as if they were just singing in the bath.
In each of these cases the art of the singer, actor and poet is all the more powerful for not drawing attention to itself, the art all the more eloquent for it not seeming studied and deliberate.
Obviously, the photography in some of the folios submitted will have been more carefully considered than in others, and in some cases it clearly looks more carefully considered. But I would guess that many of the best ones that don’t give any obvious sign of fussing about photographic values actually HAVE done – because in all the wonderful display of body parts all sorts of quirky, unexpected compositions have been out of them, or of them in relation to their setting and so on. It’s perhaps only when you stop and think of what the practicalities of the situation must have been like that you realise how difficult it was. You’ve enjoyed and appreciated the art before you’ve even thought of it as art, and, conceivably, without ever actually thinking of it as art. Which is as it should be, in my view. Art is, in the end, a means to something else. All the girls who shoot are inevitably saying ‘Look at me’, and that’s great. I’d be less happy if they were all saying ‘Look at my art’.

zille

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

I think the point at issue is essentially that of the art that conceals art. Not all art does, of course, but when it does I think we all particularly appreciate it, precisely because it gives a wonderful sensation of effortlessness, ease and power – as if the effects had happened almost of their own accord, as if they couldn’t help happening, and could naturally go on happening abundantly and lavishly for ever.

I certainly agree, Leo, that some of the best art is the the kind that seems effortless, when an artist and his/her art become one.

But you were comparing my videos (which are not art) with my stills (which I would argue are, at least some of them.)  You liked my artless videos much better than my art -- that being photography.  And, of course, you are welcome to like best anything you like on this site.  You're even welcome to think nothing I do isn't worthy of your viewing time, and I'm sure there are some ISM viewers who studiously ignore my sets, because I'm just not their cuppa tea. 

But you were asking me to stop making art, and I quote, "to throw caution to the winds, and with a joyous 'Whoo-hoo!' snap away as [I let] it all hang out."  My "caution" is only the care I take in making an image as I like it to look.  And, in composing that image, I am indeed letting my soul "all hang out."  You were not asking me to make my art seem more "effortless" in that original post.

So it's really not about the "art that conceals art."  I am making my art, and, as a matter of fact, those shoots flow pretty effortlessly for me.  I have more than once hit a spell where shot after shot after shot is exciting for me, is all that I hoped for and more.  Which is what every photographer longs for and works towards.  This is simply a matter of whether you like my art, or not.  It's fine if you don't, and you can have any reason you like.  But the problem comes in when you insinuate that I'm not being naturally me, that I am holding myself back.  You simply do not have the tools to judge if I am or not (not knowing me personally, or having been present at the shoot.)  All you can say is that those images either work for you, or they don't. 

I'm sorry to hear they don't, and I'm glad you enjoyed my videos.  You now know you can anticipate enjoying my videos when the post to the site, and that you may wish to avoid my still folios, because you just won't enjoy them as much as another ISMers will.

---

~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

AnnaNerd

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

Very interesting thread.  First, Zille, may I compliment you on your ability to look yummy in either a catsuit or a worn flannel shirt?    Second...I think some of this debate may stem from issues of authenticity on the internet.  We're separated by thousands of miles of coaxial cable and all we have to size up other people is what they present to us, and we who have been on the internet for longer than five minutes know that people present themselves selectively.  So when we come upon a site like ISM that is so utterly natural, those of us who like amateurs first go "WHEE! OMG! FINALLY! REAL CHICKS!" and then we go "hummm......or are they really real?"  So we are constantly judging and evaluating authenticity, even in a supposedly safe space such as this.

The other issue involving authenticity could possibly be that we also tend to assume that the fresh-faced Australians frolicking in streams are the most authentic women here on ISM, simply because they conform most neatly to our preconceptions of 'natural'.  While fresh-faced Aussies are hot (hi Strawberry!), some people, when evaluating what to do when putting together a folio, might cook up something involving more plastic, vinyl and naugahyde - less natural, maybe, but certainly not less authentic if that's who they are. 

My two folios are pretty good examples.  Put side by side, the Cabin Fever folio probably looks the most "natural" and least sphinx-like (love that term), but I am wearing equal amounts of makeup in both folios, and (to my mind) manipulating the light sources equally.  One just happens to have natural light streaming in from a window while the other has a bright studio light pointing at me, and in the latter, the colors and the absurd hat add a surreal quality.  And to bring it back to Zille, her latest folio looks more "natural" and least "spinx-light" than "My Pink Heaven" or "Suffuse", but I think that a polished Zille admirer (such as, say, me!) would comb through all of those and try to think of a way to put them all together to get a closer approximation of the way Zille sees herself and the world.

pia

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

My god, Pia -- even over-tired and hopped up on "cold and flu tablets" (which are hard drugs indeed!) you are far more coherent and well-spoken than I will ever be!  Thank you so very much for your wonderful response!

Zille Zille Zille, not quite true that I am far more coherant than you ever will be .. in fact far from the truth .. but anyway i will take it as a compliment and you are very welcome for my "wonderful" response I'm only sorry that i took such a long time to get back here because i know that this forum is awfully quiet sometimes and in the few instances where i have tried to start new threads they have never really taken off and i've felt kind of .. hmmm maybe a bit sad or in anycase not inspired to continue with them. It's very curious isn't it how the forums don't really seem to work so well here. I noticed over at IFM things get pretty interesting on the boards .. but alas i am not a member there.

But I've found myself limiting myself in some respects.  I've tried to follow a more "natural" theme because I figure that's what the people who sign up for this site want.  If I had really just been shooting for me, I'd have (often) been smeared in make-up, wearing wigs and costumes, trying on new characters and personas and situations (a bit like Cindy Sherman's Complete Untitled Film Stills which influenced me early from early on.)  But if people complain I'm not sharing enough about myself now, think what it would have been like if I'd been "hiding" under wigs and make-up.  (Although again, it would have been no kind of hiding at all, just another kind of exposure.)

Why don't you send in a folio where you just really really don't worry about limiting yourself in anyway and as Leobloom said "throw caution to the winds" although i don't mean that in the same way that he did and i imagine that what you would create would not be exactly the result that he might be longing for I think that we shouldn't have to worry about what the members want because thats not really the point of this site as far as i can see ... although i also have at times definantly confirmed to a small degree to what i feel is wanted by these people.

Yes, yes, yes!  That's the first thing you learn (or I learned) in a photo class.  You capture an instant, an instant only.  You are a new and different person in the next instant (although generally not by very much -- although the great photo-journalists are the ones that capture those instants that change us all by the next instant.)  So any photo I take of myself is history.  If I do a really good job, I can capture some aspect of myself that is unchanging, but those photos are likely to be the more solemn ones, not ones where I just "snap away," which would only capture a mood I was in at the time.

exactly:) I just had a look at your website and notice that you have a new site with your photographs coming soon! I am really looking forwards to seeing it, do you know when it is going to be up and running?

I feel quite the same (about the warm feeling that is!)  It is lovely making a new friend, esp. one so lovely and well-spoken.  And making that connection in a public forum -- well, does feel a bit odd, sharing that personal moment!  But I am so glad you risked exposing yourself for it!  Thank you!!!

Thank you. Yes it is very very lovely to make a new friend Zille, especialy one so brave and beautiful and inteligent and kind .. blush .. ok i am going to run away out of this cyber cave now and go and get some fresh air.
xox

blissed

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

Sorry if I'm a bit late here.

because all these ways we have of expressing ourselves are so limiting and 2 dimensional in a way .. everything is constantly changing and evolving all the time anyway so what might be true in one minute is not in the next.

Yes, yes, yes!  That's the first thing you learn (or I learned) in a photo class.  You capture an instant, an instant only.  You are a new and different person in the next instant (although generally not by very much -- although the great photo-journalists are the ones that capture those instants that change us all by the next instant.)

If you take a small section of video of someone talking and move through it in an editing program frame by frame you see this, from frame to frame someone can look  quite different. I think it's because my mind sort of tries to produce a 3d mental picture and in doing so fills in all the information thats absent with it's own, which isn't in fact real at all. Actually, the amount of times when I use  a still camera and catch the moment when someone's blinking or rolling their eyes is uncanny, I don't know if it's a handicap or some sort of special talent 

Zille I think Pia's folio's are the very best one's on ISM I've said it a few times and I probably embarrass her every time I think it'd be nice if sometime you could get together and see if you wanted to produced something either for these sites or just for yourselves.

.

zille

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

Zille Zille Zille, not quite true that I am far more coherant than you ever will be .. in fact far from the truth .. but anyway i will take it as a compliment and you are very welcome for my "wonderful" response I'm only sorry that i took such a long time to get back here because i know that this forum is awfully quiet sometimes and in the few instances where i have tried to start new threads they have never really taken off and i've felt kind of .. hmmm maybe a bit sad or in any case not inspired to continue with them. It's very curious isn't it how the forums don't really seem to work so well here. I noticed over at IFM things get pretty interesting on the boards .. but alas i am not a member there.

I'm sure the ISM folks would be very happy to have you on the IFM forums -- I think that all you have to do is ask!

I've been around when the forums here were more lively.  I figure these things go in cycles.  But yes, one never knows what will take off, as a topic, and what will flop utterly.  I'm always surprised.

And don't worry about taking your time -- I'm just happy to hear from you again!   

Why don't you send in a folio where you just really really don't worry about limiting yourself in anyway and as Leobloom said "throw caution to the winds" although i don't mean that in the same way that he did and i imagine that what you would create would not be exactly the result that he might be longing for I think that we shouldn't have to worry about what the members want because thats not really the point of this site as far as i can see ... although i also have at times definantly confirmed to a small degree to what i feel is wanted by these people.

I am going to do that, Pia.  Sadly. I agree that Leo probably will not be pleased with the result, but I am hoping other people will be!

Being a business, this site does have to balance giving support and encouragement to the girls with making the members happy.  And since they do the former better than pretty much any other site, I do always want to help them with the latter!

The earlier shoots I have done, they have all been "me," but just not all of me, since I am a pretty ... intense person, and that's just not everyone's cuppa tea.  I think the average person who signs up for ISM just wants to see lovely girls frolicking naked, not me in latex getting spanked.  If they wanted that, they'd be off looking at a fetish site!  But, maybe, they won't mind trying out a taste of it....

exactly:) I just had a look at your website and notice that you have a new site with your photographs coming soon! I am really looking forwards to seeing it, do you know when it is going to be up and running?

As soon as can be!  That said, there is a server issue to resolve, and also I have to get my webdesigner all the stuff I said I'd get her (a bio, bunches of final-prepped images, graphics for various parts of the site, etc.)  But it's in progress, and I'm certain it will be in January, although most likely towards the end of the month.  When the new site goes live, I'll make a post here, so everyone can go see it! 

And ... thank you for your interest!  It's one of the main things I'm focusing on right now, so anyone who wants to hear me babble about my upcoming website is my new best friend! 

Thank you. Yes it is very very lovely to make a new friend Zille, especialy one so brave and beautiful and intelligent and kind .. blush .. ok i am going to run away out of this cyber cave now and go and get some fresh air.
xox

Awww ... you're making me blush, too, and do that thing where you look away and start drawing circles on the ground with your big toe.  Brave, beautiful, intelligent, kind -- those are just the words I'd have used for you!

I must say I'm a bit ... more than a little bit ... jealous of Lucy Sinclair in your "Blue Moon" shoot!  You guys look like succbii, like the vampire wives in Coppola's Dracula! 

Now I need fresh air!

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~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

zille

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

Zille I think Pia's folio's are the very best one's on ISM I've said it a few times and I probably embarrass her every time I think it'd be nice if sometime you could get together and see if you wanted to produced something either for these sites or just for yourselves.

You and me both, Blissed, you and me both!

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~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

LeoBloom

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

Why don't you send in a folio where you just really really don't worry about limiting yourself in anyway and as Leobloom said "throw caution to the winds" although i don't mean that in the same way that he did and i imagine that what you would create would not be exactly the result that he might be longing for

Not the sort of thing I might be longing for, eh? And what sort of things do you think I might be longing for, eh then, Pia? If you think I am wanting what I think you think I'm wanting, then I ought to add that Zille already gives full satisfaction in that department. I think your own suggestion may have been along the same lines as mine, actually.

LeoBloom

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

Sorry, can I rewrite that post as it's not clear what's Pia and what's me:

Why don't you send in a folio where you just really really don't worry about limiting yourself in anyway and as Leobloom said "throw caution to the winds" although i don't mean that in the same way that he did and i imagine that what you would create would not be exactly the result that he might be longing for

Not the sort of thing I might be longing for, eh? And what sort of things do you think I might be longing for, eh then, Pia? If you think I am wanting what I think you think I'm wanting, then I ought to add that Zille already gives full satisfaction in that department. I think your own suggestion may have been along the same lines as mine, actually.

zille

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

Sorry, can I rewrite that post as it's not clear what's Pia and what's me:

Not the sort of thing I might be longing for, eh? And what sort of things do you think I might be longing for, eh then, Pia? If you think I am wanting what I think you think I'm wanting, then I ought to add that Zille already gives full satisfaction in that department. I think your own suggestion may have been along the same lines as mine, actually.

I think Pia was suggesting that I do the very slick and professional-seeming shoots that I like doing, and which you may find even more "aloof and sphinx-like" than my previous ones. 

You were pretty clear in your first comment about what you were wanting, and people have been basing their comments on what you said.

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~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

zille

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

Very interesting thread.  First, Zille, may I compliment you on your ability to look yummy in either a catsuit or a worn flannel shirt?    Second...I think some of this debate may stem from issues of authenticity on the internet.  We're separated by thousands of miles of coaxial cable and all we have to size up other people is what they present to us, and we who have been on the internet for longer than five minutes know that people present themselves selectively.  So when we come upon a site like ISM that is so utterly natural, those of us who like amateurs first go "WHEE! OMG! FINALLY! REAL CHICKS!" and then we go "hummm......or are they really real?"  So we are constantly judging and evaluating authenticity, even in a supposedly safe space such as this.

The other issue involving authenticity could possibly be that we also tend to assume that the fresh-faced Australians frolicking in streams are the most authentic women here on ISM, simply because they conform most neatly to our preconceptions of 'natural'.  While fresh-faced Aussies are hot (hi Strawberry!), some people, when evaluating what to do when putting together a folio, might cook up something involving more plastic, vinyl and naugahyde - less natural, maybe, but certainly not less authentic if that's who they are. 

My two folios are pretty good examples.  Put side by side, the Cabin Fever folio probably looks the most "natural" and least sphinx-like (love that term), but I am wearing equal amounts of makeup in both folios, and (to my mind) manipulating the light sources equally.  One just happens to have natural light streaming in from a window while the other has a bright studio light pointing at me, and in the latter, the colors and the absurd hat add a surreal quality.  And to bring it back to Zille, her latest folio looks more "natural" and least "spinx-light" than "My Pink Heaven" or "Suffuse", but I think that a polished Zille admirer (such as, say, me!) would comb through all of those and try to think of a way to put them all together to get a closer approximation of the way Zille sees herself and the world.

Hi, lovely Anna! 

Sorry my reply to this is so belated -- I don't know how I missed this!

I love what you wrote!  (And I am totally as much as "Anna-fan" as you are a "Zille admirer"!)

The "authenticity" people just push my buttons a little (in case you can't tell!) because they often mistake lower quality work for authentic work, and since I've been working for years to make beautiful, high quality authentic works, it peeves, a bit, when someone says I can't possibly be real.

When you bring up, "safe space," it's interesting because I believe ISM promotes itself as a "safe space" for the models, not the customers (a bit like the Lusty Lady peep show, where I used to work, actually!)  I know what you mean, but it's interesting to think about it like that.  "I know this place is a safe place to wank because the girls are 'real'."  (I.e., "this place is a 'safe' place to find content that gets me hot")  It's a matter of "I know I can go here and see what I want to see."

Which I totally understand, but which makes me even more leery of sending them the stuff I really like best to do ... I don't want to make the customers feel less safe.  (Since not all of them are "polished Zille admirers" such as your lovely self!)

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~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

Head

Administrator

Re: Art vs. "natural"

Which I totally understand, but which makes me even more leery of sending them the stuff I really like best to do ... I don't want to make the customers feel less safe.  (Since not all of them are "polished Zille admirers" such as your lovely self!)

To hell with the customers Zille, just send us your stuff!

zille

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

To hell with the customers Zille, just send us your stuff!

Okay, Head!  Since I have it formally from you, I will do just that from now on in!

Be prepared to go "deep inside" Zille!   ;P

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~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

zille

Member

Re: Art vs. "natural"

To hell with the customers Zille, just send us your stuff!

Okay, Head!  Since I have it formally from you, I will do just that from now on in!

Be prepared to go "deep inside" Zille!   ;P

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~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com