#1 December 1st, 2004 08:49 AM

marina

Member

reactions

hello all,
my folio 'mer' was recently posted and i was a bit excited.  Photo evidence of mermaids is pretty rare these days...  I told a few of my friends about it, about the site, and about how much fun I'd had.  I expected them to be excited too.  I was so surprised to find that some of them felt I'd degraded myself and my gender.  They hadn't seen my shots (which I feel express my innocence more than anything else), and they didn't listen long to my rant about control, but they were pretty quick to judge.  They didn't get it.  Did many other models get this reaction?

p.s I have some other questions.  1)How does head know I'm a hippy?  Do only hippies dress up as mermaids or is it my flyaway locks?  2)Do people want to know about the person behind the shots, or is it about the illusion and being able to create your own person?  I'm happy to divulge. 
Also, have just realised how blue (and orange! and kind of bright pink! I remind me of those bad 80's hypercolour clothes) I am in my shots, please be aware temperature was 16 degrees at time of shooting.

Gimme_Danger

Member

Re: reactions

I expected them to be excited too.  I was so surprised to find that some of them felt I'd degraded myself and my gender.

who are they to judge you? does it matter if you degrade yourself..you choose to? this site is about free expression is it not?

I paint and draw the human body and exhibited work this summer. someone censored one of my works with an envelope over what they considered to be the offending part...it annoyed me. their narrow mindedness changed my work from purest art and made it look dirty in the minds of others.

as I said, the degradation if it exists is in the minds of others and if there is a feminist argument to be made I feel it is somewhat dated. women latterly have chosen to reassert their power in other ways by reclaiming the nude and I am all for it.

centrevom

Member

Re: reactions

I told a few of my friends about it, about the site, and about how much fun I'd had.  I expected them to be excited too.  I was so surprised to find that some of them felt I'd degraded myself and my gender.  They hadn't seen my shots (which I feel express my innocence more than anything else), and they didn't listen long to my rant about control, but they were pretty quick to judge.  They didn't get it.  

Oh dear. I thought that sort of attitude got buried in the late 70s.  If it's degrading to post your shots, then it's degrading to be you.  And that's really demeaning.

p.s I have some other questions.  ... 2)Do people want to know about the person behind the shots, or is it about the illusion and being able to create your own person?  I'm happy to divulge. 

Yes, I for one really do want to know about the artist.  I want her to be real, not an illusion.  That's part of what makes ISM different.

mcam2000

Member

Re: reactions

Marina just be yourself. Dont care about the judges maybe they are just jelous or too shy to do all you done. In my opinion the more i know of a selfshooter the more she will be real. And ofcourse since i'm a voy exibit. too the more i see the more i wish to see. Btw... yours is a great folio

liz

Member

Re: reactions

This is such a crazy debate-able issue, with so many differing opinions and ideas about it.  I think that most "mainstream porn" and even sometimes what passes for "erotica" can be degrading and exploitative, but  a lot of times it's a personal judgement call.  What is comes down to for me, is,  a) who is creating it?, b) for what purpose? and c) for what audience?

I think ISM, is, on the whole, a very positive, empowering "porn" site.  Because all of the women are on here because they want to be, because they all choose how to present themselves, because it is all 100% real and natural (not to say that all of the women and their body parts are necessarily 100% real and natural!! but that there is no airbrushing, etc.), that makes me see it as non-degrading.
 
When you get into porn that is created simply to get guys off, to present a completely unrealistic image of, for one, women with bodies that just don't exist in nature, and, two, women who do not exist as personalities, but *only* as bodies, that is when you get into the area of degradation.

But again, you have the whole issue of, well, if the women are choosing to let themselves be presented that way, how can it be degrading?  And for a lot of it, it comes down to a long cultural history of women being subordinate to men (whether as the "little wife" or the "whore" to be used).  There is still so much pressure on women to look and be a certain way, and most mainstream porn perpetuates this - but I don't need to get into a feminist rant on you.

The point is, since you were 100% in control of yourself, your body, and how both were presented, if you find it healthy, meaningful, and empowering, then that's what's important.  I think it's unfortunate that your friends sort of gave you the programmed response to porn, without really taking a look at how ISM is different from the majority of what's out there and how you personally feel about it. 

And I can't believe they weren't astounded by photos of a real live mermaid.  They are, as you said, quite rare....

(p.s.  Just so you know, I'm a model too, rather than a sponsor, so that's where my perspective is coming from.)

Marina just be yourself. Dont care about the judges maybe they are just jelous or too shy to do all you done. In my opinion the more i know of a selfshooter the more she will be real. And ofcourse since i'm a voy exibit. too the more i see the more i wish to see. Btw... yours is a great folio

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"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
            -Emma Goldman

jules_winnfield

Member

Re: reactions

Marina-

I said in the comments of your folio that your pics weren't exploitative at all. In my opinion, some of the other folios can be. Or maybe I'm just phobic about orifices being pulled apart on camera. I get grossed out about other things, too. But yours were the most lovely images I've seen in long time. Other folios usually have one or two great pics, but every single one of the mermaid were just great. I'm sorry I'm gushing. I joined Project_ISM because I saw just a few of your pics the other day.

In answer to your question, I'd like to know more about  the person. I was afraid I never would because of the illusion of the whole mermaid thing.  Are you from Australia like just about everybody else? I imagine so if you said it was 16 degress. If that was fahrenheit, you would get frostbite in a minute all wet and nude like that. I'm from New Jersey, BTW.

Anyway, thanks for posting the folio. I haven't felt so much like a sailor being called to the sirens in a long time. Maybe I should take an Odyssey to wherever you are.

PS I hope you win!

tinka

Member

Re: reactions

The beauty of this site is the fact that the artist contributes only what she feels comfortable and safe contributing. I am yet to see any artist degrade themself. When my first shoot went up I was so excited I wanted to tell the whole world about my new outlet of self expression. I was however a little apprehensive about the stigma that may accompany it.  I was lucky enough to have the support of everyone around me. All my mates are male and were very impressed with the quality of this site and the individuality each artist is able to express. I thought your shots were fantastic and I'm sure if your friends were to view them before they judged you they would agree. xoxo

marina

Member

Re: reactions

[QUOTE=liz]This is such a crazy debate-able issue, with so many differing opinions and ideas about it.  I think that most "mainstream porn" and even sometimes what passes for "erotica" can be degrading and exploitative, but  a lot of times it's a personal judgement call.  What is comes down to for me, is,  a) who is creating it?, b) for what purpose? and c) for what audience?

I think you're right liz, it is about who takes it, what for, and who it's for.  I've also worked as a life drawing model and none of my friends have found a problem with that, i expect they're all thinking 'that's art. That's ok".  With this, I expect they're thinking "that's porn.  That's not ok".  Boxes. I think you're right again when you say perhaps they haven't looked to see where ISM is fundamentally different.  Having the camera in my own hands (or underneath my big toe) allowed me to show how I'm sexy, and define myself rather than be defined.  I looked at my shots with a shy smile and thought "i'm a bit gorgeous", and there's the beauty.  It also created a place for others to tell me that too, something we don't often offer to others in our day to day lives.

And for those for whom the illusion leaves wanting? Yes, I'm Australian.  Tasmanian actually (perhaps that's why 16 was plenty warm enough for swimming!), and I have that passion for place that people who grow up on islands often possess.  I also rather like reading.

And jules?  thanks.

philos

Member

Re: reactions

No one has put the view that in "porn" it is men that are exploited by women, but surely a case can be made.  It is so easy for women to arouse us, and we pay good money for them to do it.  Without women there would not be much porn.  What is holding me in front of this screen this morning when I should be working? Women!

Of four "porn" sites I belong to, one (ISM) is controlled by women, two are owned and managed by women, and the fourth, owned and run by a man, exploits poor east-european girls: it IS degrading and I never watch it now.

There's a range of approaches on ISM from high art to in-your-face sex.  I love them all.  As for your set, Marina, this was the most natural I've seen: a real human being showing off in a way that you know will please both you and us.  How can that degrade women? I'm so grateful, believe me!  And yes, I do like to know the model as a person.

honeysuckle

Member

Re: reactions

I totally agree with everything Liz has said here, (and I'm an artist/model too.)

I found shooting myself for ISM was a totally empowering and pleasurable thing to do. .........and surprisingly addictive!
I'm PROUD to show the site and my pics to my friends. (But I guess I have pretty open-minded friends!).
I'm genuinely thrilled that ISM is putting an alternative to "plastic porn" out there. Most of the porn on the net (and even in most fashion magazines) produce images of women that I feel are so often degrading........in the sense that it is usually contrived conformist crap, with women either looking like anorexic androgynist molested "little girls".......or like completely stupid "tits + arse" plastic fuck-dolls!

I find it wonderful and refreshingly erotic to see so many beautiful REAL women showing of their attitudes and real bodies and their own unique form of sexiness on ISM.
And one of the most touching and encouraging things are the great comments and appreciative reactions that all the viewers seem to have. I think the whole thing is kind of uplifting and exciting..... and certainly nothing to feel ashamed about!

Belgareth

Member

Re: reactions

I totally agree with everything Liz has said here, (and I'm an artist/model too.)

I found shooting myself for ISM was a totally empowering and pleasurable thing to do. .........and surprisingly addictive!
I'm PROUD to show the site and my pics to my friends. (But I guess I have pretty open-minded friends!).
I'm genuinely thrilled that ISM is putting an alternative to "plastic porn" out there. Most of the porn on the net (and even in most fashion magazines) produce images of women that I feel are so often degrading........in the sense that it is usually contrived conformist crap, with women either looking like anorexic androgynist molested "little girls".......or like completely stupid "tits + arse" plastic fuck-dolls!

I find it wonderful and refreshingly erotic to see so many beautiful REAL women showing of their attitudes and real bodies and their own unique form of sexiness on ISM.
And one of the most touching and encouraging things are the great comments and appreciative reactions that all the viewers seem to have. I think the whole thing is kind of uplifting and exciting..... and certainly nothing to feel ashamed about!

Beautifully, if rather expletively stated Honeysuckle!

I would hope that all of the folio on this site are created by ladies who are comfortable with what they are creating. The images do tell me a lot about the ladies behind them, simply by the way they present themselves. There are signs of shyness, boldness, awareness, couldn't-give-a damn and various stages in between. I believe in open honesty and would like to hear more about how you ladies felt when shooting the folio and what your reactions were to the "finished work".

I don't think that, for the majority, this is a voyeuristic site. There will always be a minority who think that it is a cheap way to see naked females and then become disenchanted because it's not what it seems to be. For me, it doesn't matter how revealing or otherwise a given folio may be. The only thing that counts is that the artist is satisfied with the outcome, admittedly there are the odd ones who display their satisfaction for all to see!  Isn't that what this is all about, just being yourself?

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Merricat

Member

Re: reactions

I'm with liz, this is a really complex issue.

When my stepmother found out about my doing nude modeling, her reaction was similar to what the original poster experienced: she thought I was degrading myself, that what I was doing was antifeminist, etc. We have since come to understand each other more on the issue, which means I can see both sides.

I think people's reaction when they hear about nude modeling or porn is to associate it with the negative aspects of some porn. I think a lot of the porn out there today IS degrading in a lot of ways that I won't even start to get in to...and people immediately think of that stuff when they hear about us. They forget that the issue is not black and white: yes, porn can be degrading and exploitative. But it can also be empowering, a learning experience, and fun! It all depends on who is involved and how they feel about it.

mcam2000

Member

Re: reactions

maybe i'm repeating myself. I think there is no porn if you do things spontaneously. it's just you who decide to shot yourself and to share. If you are always yourself and always spontaneous and so natural nobody can call these shoots porno. In ISM you can find everithing, including girls with menses,pissing and some good action too. i found these shoots so natural since they decided to share them: this is art and no porn. Dont care about the judges, maybe they are just jelous of you or too shy to do all you did.

theda

Member

Re: reactions

[QUOTE=marina]hello all,
my folio 'mer' was recently posted and i was a bit excited.  Photo evidence of mermaids is pretty rare these days...  I told a few of my friends about it, about the site, and about how much fun I'd had.  I expected them to be excited too.  I was so surprised to find that some of them felt I'd degraded myself and my gender.  They hadn't seen my shots (which I feel express my innocence more than anything else), and they didn't listen long to my rant about control, but they were pretty quick to judge.  They didn't get it.  Did many other models get this reaction?

Thats such a shame that they stopped listening to you about the ethos of the site. The majority of my friends and contacts are very active feminists and activists so I was kind of worried about what their reactions might be. Being a person who hides nothing, and was not ashamed of being on ISM I told them about my naked hobby. They told me I was silly for thinking they would object, as feminists they are fighting for a women's right to choose what she does with her body. The only person I told who seemed to disaprove was a male socialist activist (if you look into socialism its in conflict with feminism so go figure). Anyway, my convuluted point was, its up to you what you want to do with your body. Check out Jigsaw Youth by Bikini Kill.

mcam2000

Member

Re: reactions

not to be into socialism or feminism. Ithik everyone can do all she/he prefere with the respect of the laws. I do all i want and i dont care about the judges. I also respect all the people and their ideas too evenif they are different from mine. They have just to keep correct their topics and to fair play.

elly

Member

Re: reactions

[QUOTE=marina]
I told a few of my friends about it, about the site, and about how much fun I'd had.  I expected them to be excited too.  I was so surprised to find that some of them felt I'd degraded myself and my gender.  they were pretty quick to judge.  They didn't get it.  Did many other models get this reaction?

i have told my friends about my folio "pink nixx" and had mixed responces. most of the lads were amused and made playful jokes about printing pictures from the site on t-shirts, but they were all prety imprest that i did it and now my nick name is porn star. some of the girls thought it was great that i had the conferdence to do it even if they wouldn't. some are interested in doing it them selves. but then there were the people who came out with comments like "how could you do that to your self" "its so degrading" even though i told them i was proud of myself for doing it. people like that don't realise that not everyone thinks like they do and even if its not there cup of tea they should respect and be supportive of there friends desisons.

philos

Member

Re: reactions

[QUOTE=marina]
... they should respect and be supportive of there friends desisons.

Quite right. It seems to be good for girls to undergo rhe ISM experience - you can often see their self-confidence grow as they get into the shoot.  In "Pink nixx" you look quite apprehensive in the first couple of frames, but when you tentatively expose a nipple, suddenly there's a broad grin that says "Hey, this is fun!". By the end of the shoot you were so confident that you stuck your bum out the window for passers-by to admire.  I'd like to know if the experience permanently increased your confidence or your sense of control over self and others? If it did, then those of your female friends who thought ISM degrading have definitely got the wrong idea.  By the way, I like your pictures!

elly

Member

Re: reactions

   I'd like to know if the experience permanently increased your confidence or your sense of control over self and others? If it did, then those of your female friends who thought ISM degrading have definitely got the wrong idea.  By the way, I like your pictures!

yes it has made me more confident about my self. befor i did this i would look at myself in a new top an turn to the side to see if i looked fat, but now i don't because i think i can just wear what i want and not mind what others see.if i like it thats all that counts. i have much more confidence in what i can do and know that if i want to i can do anything. it wasn't just doing the pictures that did this but seeing all the good responces. even though not all my friends aprove i know that is not everyones appinion. i think it is my life and if people don't like what i do with it, it is there problem not mine.