#1 August 7th, 2005 10:00 PM

liandra_dahl

Member

Cheating

Head's reply in the "biggest sexual regret" thread got my juices going (cerebral not vaginal) and I thought I might probe around abit. What do people regard as cheating? This might seem a ridiculous question but what I mean is, for example, is cyber sex cheating? Or flirting outrageously? Can a kiss on the lips with the slightest bit of tongue be disregarded as unimportant? Are any of you swingers? How do the rules apply there? Is it possible to have a full blown sexual fling and then return to your relationship as devoted as ever and never do it again? Is the proverb "what they don't know can't hurt them" only admissable with very minor misdemeanour, or can it apply to a full sexual encounter, or never at all?

What do you think about being a witness? Should you tell or should you keep your nose out of other peoples business?

trebora

Member

Re: Cheating

The groundr ules for cheating change with every relationship for me. 

But lets just say im in a commited 1 on 1 relationship that has been ongogin for a while. cybersex is cheating.  (for me its the intent not the actions)  But then would that mean that reading erotica would also be cheating.  Is looking at a porn cheating.  No to all that jazz but cybersex is.  Now it wouldnt be a end of the relationship type of cheating but it is a warning sign to me. 

Kissing...dpeends on wether she was a kisser before or not.  I don't expect my girlfriends to change for me because i might feel jealous or uncomfortable.  Just like i don't expect them to want me to change.  If they do then they need to rethink why they are with me in the first place.

Everythign is alwasy evolving and changing in relationship so what is not cheating  one week may be another.

The story of my parent meeting was that my dad invited my mom to a party at his place in coolege.  She showed up and was pissed off because he was there with his girlfriend.  communication is the key.

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One by one, the penguins slowly steal my sanity
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zille

Member

Re: Cheating

I am completely polyamorous.  I have "full blown sexual flings" and then return to my relationship as devoted -- or more -- than ever.

For me, I just can't be in a monogamous relationship.  I am lucky to have a partner who is not jealous, and who knows that I adore him 100% -- but that I also like to go have fun with girlfriends.

Some people don't get it.  But I don't get monogamy.  So we're even!

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~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Cheating

I am completely polyamorous.  I have "full blown sexual flings" and then return to my relationship as devoted -- or more -- than ever.

For me, I just can't be in a monogamous relationship.  I am lucky to have a partner who is not jealous, and who knows that I adore him 100% -- but that I also like to go have fun with girlfriends.

Some people don't get it.  But I don't get monogamy.  So we're even!

I think it's perfectly possible that you return to your relationship as devoted as ever, if you've been lucky enough to have the "full blown sexual fling" in complete honesty and openess.

Is he ok about you having flings with other men or just girls?

I get it, I just think it's hard to find people that can cope with polyamory in theory, let alone in practice.

Belgareth

Member

Re: Cheating

I think it's perfectly possible that you return to your relationship as devoted as ever, if you've been lucky enough to have the "full blown sexual fling" in complete honesty and openess.

Is he ok about you having flings with other men or just girls?

I get it, I just think it's hard to find people that can cope with polyamory in theory, let alone in practice.

Me thinks we are back to discussing whether one discriminates between love and sex or whether one feels the need to love in order to have a sexual relationship, or it could just be plain jealously.

I don't have a problem with the concept of polyamory, in either theory or practice because we are able to love more than one person and there are very different types of love. However, when you think you are in a good stable relationship, it is important, nay imperative, that your partner understands the concept and accepts it. If only one half considers "sexual flings" outside the relationship to be acceptable, there is a conflict of need and the relationship ain't as good as it seems.

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zille

Member

Re: Cheating

I think it's perfectly possible that you return to your relationship as devoted as ever, if you've been lucky enough to have the "full blown sexual fling" in complete honesty and openess.

Is he ok about you having flings with other men or just girls?

I get it, I just think it's hard to find people that can cope with polyamory in theory, let alone in practice.

That's exactly it, Liandra!  It won't work without complete openess and honest -- and, Belgareth, you are right, too -- both partners being "on the same page," as they say.  I was in a long term (7 year) relationship with a women who never did really get over her jealousy -- which made things hard and sometimes painful for both of us.

My current partner has no jealosy at all -- the only rule is "don't bring home critters" (i.e. get pregnant or get an STD.)

It is VERY hard to find people who can truly and honestly handle poly.  Esp. being the primary partner -- it's easier to be the person who is just having a fling!  I am very lucky to have found someone who is completely secure in himself and my love for him.

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~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

gtrvox

Member

Re: Cheating

I am completely polyamorous.  I have "full blown sexual flings" and then return to my relationship as devoted -- or more -- than ever.

To each his own! My problem is only with your semantics. By definition, you cannot be devoted (primary dictionary definition is "loyal") to your relationship if you have flings. Again, I emphasise - my objection is not one of morals but of use of language

GTR

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Cheating

To each his own! My problem is only with your semantics. By definition, you cannot be devoted (primary dictionary definition is "loyal") to your relationship if you have flings. Again, I emphasise - my objection is not one of morals but of use of language

GTR

I would think Zille believes she is being loyal, by deffinition being loyal is to be firm and constant in ones support for a person. She says he is secure in her love for him, so though she is sexualy polyamorous she is loyal to him in her love and support. So there is no problem with semantics either.

bryboru

Member

Re: Cheating

I have no problem with ethics of a polyamorous relationship - once you are being honest it's not cheating in my book. Although, I think to feel secure within a relationship (most) people need to feel they can offer something to their partner nobody else can - sex being the most glaringly obvious example or at least something solid that a partner can point to.  I am guessing if I was in a polyamorous relationship I would feel under pressure to not only sleep with as many girls as possible (to get one (or two or three) up on my partner), but also under pressure to please her and prove to her that I am worth staying with.  I dunno, maybe this is a very shallow view of the whole thing.  I am in no doubt that everyone has fantasies about being someone else, but at the same time wants to maintain the security of not losing their partner, so maybe a polyamorous relationship is the most honest, open and satisfying one can be in???

wantingscott

Member

Re: Cheating

I think it's perfectly possible that you return to your relationship as devoted as ever...

ism forum,
i must admit, i had an affair on my wife 2 years ago. it was shortly after my breakdown, shortly after i got out of the institution where i was for two months.

me and my paramour justified it by thinking that it would be once, and that our friendship would continue as normal afterward. i needed it to prove to myself that i could get over my early-childhood shit and alot of other thinking that doesn't sound rational to me anymore...

anyway, things went to 3rd base with my friend. she was a fellow "mentally comprimised" person. she had scars over her body from cutting herself, but the kick was: she looked almost just like my wife. so-she was a mentally fukked-up, scarred as i am version of my wife...

it ended our friendship. i admitted the whole thing to my wife. i had to move out of the apartment for two months while we went to marriege counselling, in addition to my ongoing psychotherapy. i had to talk to her father as a man (afraid for my life, he is c0sa n0stra).

this is admitted to you., any questions?

Scott

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that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

Will_79

Member

Re: Cheating

I can't remember where I read it, but I remember a good definition of cheating being doing something you wouldn't tell your partner about.

?

Cheating is a rather touchy subject for me. I have been cheated upon in the past, but the effect of that was nothing compared to the mess I made of things when I cheated on someone.

It happened over three years ago, and it's something which still has a huge affect on me today. The reasons why I cheated I'm not 100% sure. I hadn't had much of experience of sex at the time, and I it was with a girl who I had used to fancy like mad. I felt I would have regretted missing out on having some sort of relationship with her, as short lived as it would have been.

As a result I (of course) got caught, and ended up losing the only real relationship I've ever had. It was a strange one. It was a horrible break up, only for the two of us to still have a strong connection to each other. We did carry on for a time with a strange relationship, determined not to lose this friendship we had, but always with what had happened hanging over us. When she started seeing someone new (I was hapy for her) she cut contact with me. On his insistance I imagine, feeling threatened. Still, it happened.

Even now what happened hits hard. I'm 26 years old and I've pretty given up on ever having a relationship like that one. WIth someone you feel is an extension of yourself. I've also never really forgiven myself for how much I hurt this girl, and also for what I did to myself. The stupid and selfish actions of someone who wasn't meaning to do any harm to anyone, and the person who was hurt the most by my actions was myself. I'm still a miserable bastard 18 months since I was cut off with no real hope of sharing the same happiness I did with her.

Ok, I admit that was a rather morbid story, and I admit I'm in a rather feeling sorry for myself mood at the moment. The point however is to argue against this idea that I have heard so often that once a cheater always a cheater is true. In my situation it certainly is not. There is no way on earth I would dare hurt someone like that again, or do it to myself.

mlwade

Member

Re: Cheating

My long experience tells me that the conventions and institutions that we have developed over time to constitute "legitimate" romantic and/or sexual relationships are far from being adequate to the complexities and vagaries of the human heart and libido.  That, I submit, is one very powerful reason that such relationships are often so wrought with anxiety and pain, all the more to the degree that we inevitably end up internalizing these notions of legitimacy and so trying to force our feelings and passions to conform to them.  Can we do better?  I don't know but in my pessimistic moments I think that good old Freud was right in his Civilization and its Discontents.

paintjam

Member

Re: Cheating

Head's reply in the "biggest sexual regret" thread got my juices going (cerebral not vaginal) and I thought I might probe around abit. What do people regard as cheating? This might seem a ridiculous question but what I mean is, for example, is cyber sex cheating? Or flirting outrageously? Can a kiss on the lips with the slightest bit of tongue be disregarded as unimportant? Are any of you swingers? How do the rules apply there? Is it possible to have a full blown sexual fling and then return to your relationship as devoted as ever and never do it again? Is the proverb "what they don't know can't hurt them" only admissable with very minor misdemeanour, or can it apply to a full sexual encounter, or never at all?

What do you think about being a witness? Should you tell or should you keep your nose out of other peoples business?

what has never ceased to amaze be about the human animal is the way it gets so bent out of shape about sex, or anything related for that matter.
all of the things you mention above can and are considered cheating by people, and they are all equally ridiculous to consider as cheating.

relationships...full blown fling and return yes, return to never do it again...unlikely.

the witness question is a tough one, as we all undoubtedly know someone who we care so much about, of course we would tell to keep them from being hurt more.   
but there it is again, the WHY DOES IT HURT SO MANY SO MUCH WHEN IT HAS TO DO WITH SEX?
is it jealousy exclusively?
moral values (yeah, right)
cheating on any level in a relationship is the act of deception, be it a sexual interlude, a kiss with some tongue, the internet.  it is the not being truthful that makes it cheating...
i do know that it all can drain the life out of a relationship, making those flings seem more and MORE ATTRACTIVE.

..................

Cheating is defined as an act of deception, fraud, trickery, imposture, or imposition. Cheating characteristically is employed to create an unfair advantage, usually in one's own interest, and often at the expense of others. Cheating implies the breaking of rules. The term "cheating" is less applicable to the breaking of laws, as illegal activities are referred to by specific legal terminology such as fraud or corruption. Cheating is a primordial economic act: getting more for less.

..........................

hugz
jamie

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'stay beautiful'

jackscratch

Member

Re: Cheating

I'm still a miserable bastard 18 months since I was cut off with no real hope of sharing the same happiness I did with her.

Ok, I admit that was a rather morbid story, and I admit I'm in a rather feeling sorry for myself mood at the moment. The point however is to argue against this idea that I have heard so often that once a cheater always a cheater is true. In my situation it certainly is not. There is no way on earth I would dare hurt someone like that again, or do it to myself.

Yo Willie...quite a story. And your sadness and regret come through absolutely. Couldn't help but respond as I have a not so different story.

My experience, while certainly not vast, is that most people who have lived life fully have some level of regret and a wish to have done some things differently - particularly when it comes to love. This comes with a life living on the edge.

Sometimes in my pursuit of happiness and experience I've made an absolute fucking mess of things, sometimes to those most dear. I'm certainly not suggesting that one should seek experiences that are deliberately going to hurt a loved one, but, unfortunately, I think that in this dance done freely comes stepping on others toes. And I ain't proud of it. And I've certainly done my share and had it done to me too.

I think that the point here is to learn and move forward; what's done is done.

I had a love when I was in my late teens/early twenties that I risked and lost and thought could never happen again. And it hasn't. I'm not the same person that I was then. But I've had other loves that are magnitudinally beyond anything I ever imagined. Not better, nor worse, just very different, powerful and deep.

And I probably wouldn't have been ready for these love affairs if I hadn't had the experience I had with my first true lover. There is a certain innocence that cannot be recreated; but with experience comes knowledge and hopefully, some degree of wisdom (or at least the wisdom to know I don't know shit...)

Here's the rub: guilt is a destructive emotion that really doesn't serve anyone. It keeps us in the past and prevents us from engaging fully in the opportunities to make the most out of this brief stay in this life.

I know nothing about you but if you were my pal, I'd prescribe a few rounds of drinks in a place swarming with hot women looking for some fun. Good luck, dude.

LeoBloom

Member

Re: Cheating

'Cheating is a lady's word' - Lenny Bruce.

LeoBloom

Member

Re: Cheating

This is the Lenny Bruce routine I was thinking of:

                   
Let's face it, guys are different.
And ladies just don't understand this.

   
                   
Because to a lady,
cheating means, l know,

   
                   
hugging and kissing
and liking somebody.

   
                   
With guys, that doesn't enter into it.
Guys are detached.

   
                   
You put a guy on a desert island,
he'll do it to mud.

   
                   
A chicken. A barrel. Anything. A knothole.

   
                   
lf you know this,
would you really feel hurt

   
                   
if you came home and found your
husband on the bed with a chicken?

   
                   
- ''A chicken. A chicken in our bed!''
- ''Oh, come on.''

   
                   
''Don't touch me! You want your dinner,
get your chicken to get it for you.''

   
                   
ln New York, it's illegal.

   
                   
''Seeming sexual intercourse
with an animal, to wit, a chicken.''

   
                   
That's the literal.

   
                   
But how can you even fantasise it?

   
                   
They're too short!

   
                   
''How come you're alone?
Your chicken leave town?''

   
                   
''Will you leave me alone already?
l was drunk. l met her in the yard.''

   
                   
''Anyway, l was thinking of you
the whole time l was doing it.''

blissed

Member

Re: Cheating

It's about companionship and love, whether theres sex involved in a freindship or not.

.

paintjam

Member

Re: Cheating

It's about companionship and love, whether theres sex involved in a freindship or not.

.

companionship and love is a beautiful thing.
it's been a while.
these days i am REALLY enjoying being single.
jamie

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'stay beautiful'

kitty_kat

Member

Re: Cheating

Wow that was a lot of questions from liandra_dahl.  For the first time in my life I'm actually in a relationship where I do not have any intention of cheating nor have I cheated, and ditto for him.  BUt this is maybe because I didn't really see my other relationships as important and didn't find the odd kiss on the side a problem at all.
Now, in my current relationship, I would say cheating is anything, even a kiss on the lips with a tiny bit of tongue.  Watching porn is not cheating.  Reading erotica is not cheating either.  We discussed cheating straight away because of my being bisexual, and I wanted to check if making out with other girls was okay (most guys seem to be surprisingly ok with this).  My current boy was not ok with this, which is fine with me.
Unless, however, we decide to have a threesome

paintjam

Member

Re: Cheating

would you say being in here online nude, or in these forums for that matter, are a form of cheating then?

j

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'stay beautiful'

LeoBloom

Member

Re: Cheating

We discussed cheating straight away because of my being bisexual, and I wanted to check if making out with other girls was okay (most guys seem to be surprisingly ok with this).

Yes, I think most guys probably are OK about this, because most of us probably find the idea erotic. And, of course, there's no penetration. Penetration is probably the bottom line here - though some of us would get turned on by the idea of that too.

Will_79

Member

Re: Cheating

would you say being in here online nude, or in these forums for that matter, are a form of cheating then?

j

That would depend surely on the people involved. If it were done behind your partner's back and kept a secret, then yes, I guess it would/coud be classed as cheating.

I don't know how I would feel about having a girlfriend online nude. It's all very blurred, and would depend on exactly what the genre was. If it were on ISM for example then I think I would be quite happy and excited by the idea. I have a lot of respect for this site and for it's attitude towards nudity and being natural. If I were female I would do a shoot myself. However, some sleazy internet site, with the emphasis on sex, then I doubt I would be too happy.

Hypocritical?

And thankyou Jackscratch for the message. I know guilt is a destructive emotion. It's only because I've been in a weird situation at the moment where I'm without a job, no real friends (who haven't moved about 2 thousand miles away), and no girl. I'm bored out of my brain, and I admit I've just been feeling sorry for myself, and so of course you dwell mistakes you've made. Hopefully things will change soon though. I'll be starting a new career in September in something I'm really quite excited about. That also leaves me time to head over to Australia for 4-5 weeks beforehand and hopefully get that spark back during my mini adventure.

paintjam

Member

Re: Cheating

Yes, I think most guys probably are OK about this, because most of us probably find the idea erotic. And, of course, there's no penetration. Penetration is probably the bottom line here - though some of us would get turned on by the idea of that too.

most of the guys i know lust greatly over two women together, yet if it is their mate they are uncool with it.   they all seem to have a fear of losing the woman they love to another female.  that is territory they cannot compete with really, and the same is true in reverse.  when the same sex gets together for lovemaking or just for lust, there is something ultra inviting about it, something forbidden and overwhelmingly sexually assimilating about it, especially since both members having the same parts know exactly what to do to please the other.

if someone gets extremely attracted to the same sex and lovemaking with them, how can a member of the opposite sex compete really?

happy lusting 
jamie

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'stay beautiful'

LeoBloom

Member

Re: Cheating

if someone gets extremely attracted to the same sex and lovemaking with them, how can a member of the opposite sex compete really?

It's not another man and so they don't feel they have to compete. It's not a rival in the same way.

paintjam

Member

Re: Cheating

It's not another man and so they don't feel they have to compete. It's not a rival in the same way.

and yet i have seen more couples break up because of an affair with the same sex.
its all relative.

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'stay beautiful'