#26 August 5th, 2005 05:13 AM

Merricat

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

Everyone here has already said a lot of what I would have liked to say about the original issue.

I will say though that I always feel really sad when a girl who is just claiming the whole "bicurious" name to get attention from boys uses ME as the girl to hit on/dance with/make out with. The second I realize that I'm just being used to turn on some guy I always feel really let down.

wantingscott

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

makes sense. nobody likes beiing used. let me ask you- are these "faking it" girls the type you'd go for. physically?

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that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

as bad as girls complain about guys checking them (T&A) out all the time-
when i visit friends on long island, the 40-50 year old "plastic surgery" set makes us feel like walking D&A. AND blatently in front of our wives. my catt gets MAD!!!

I am terrible for checking boys and girls out, of course I don't shout out my car window at them, but there are so many cuties around Melbourne you can't help but look. I was once so overwhelmed about how gorgeous a guy was that I did a double take, he started smiling, so I just told him I thought he was bloody gorgeous. It went quite well for a while, but then I discovered he was a terrible kisser so it never went further than that.

thylacine

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

There was an interesting experiment done recently at a Dutch university on the nature of sexuality.

Researchers took a group of people composed of roughly equal numbers of straight and gay, male and female. Then each person watched a series of hetero and gay porn films, whilst being wired up to monitors to see how aroused they became.

As might be expected the straight men because aroused whilst watching the straight porn, but weren't much interested in the gay porn. Likewise the gay men weren't much interested in the straight porn, but enjoyed the gay porn.

But the women's reactions were much more interesting. The straight women not only enjoyed the straight porn, but a substantial minority, about 40% if I remember correctly, were aroused by the lesbian porn. Likewise with the women who identified themselves as gay, a similar large minority became aroused by both the straight and lesbian porn.

So it would seem that women's sexuality is more of a moveable feast than it is with men.

wantingscott

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

i would have been the odd sample in that study...

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_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

Markk02474

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

I will say though that I always feel really sad when a girl who is just claiming the whole "bicurious" name to get attention from boys uses ME as the girl to hit on/dance with/make out with.

I'm sad too when a girl uses a guy just to try and make her bf jealous. I found your folios yesterday and well, girls must be flying out of the closet at you! Even straight girls, so now I understand your surprise better after having seen some pics. Even shy babydykes just meeting have goofy smiles for each other which looks much different from a straight girl with a "woot, girls just wanna have fun" energy. That's how I observe the difference between real and fake attraction. Also the first pair notices no one else in the room, and the user is scanning for interested guys. I hate the term "bi-curious". One should only be that for a week or two before taking some action to resolve the curiosity.

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BTW, many of my lesbian friends find said porn fairly boring, and more than a few list their fave as gay MALE porn.

nihilonx

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

Around here that's the Mexicans and Blacks.  It's really annoying to those of us who are trying to show a little more class and respect.  But my teenage daughter is really into it.

I've been unable to explain to her, that when you go to a rap concert and the performers are calling you girls cunt and whore  and "come up here and suck my dick and I wanna ass-fuck you",  and you girls are screaming and cheering;  that the guys you go with are seeing this behavior and saying to themselves "So that's what they like.  That's the way I should act.  That's how you romance a girl."  Boys are in a learning curve just as much as girls.  There is no instruction book.  You learn by observing.  Guys are trying to figure out what girls want.  When you cheer the behavior of these performers,  and guys see that these performers are worshiped idols,  they figure that this is how it's done.

No wonder, we're dysfunctional.

End of lecture.

Put yourself in the guy's shoes for a moment -- would you spend a lot of time, energy (and sometimes money) trying to "romance"  women when you see so many girls going for the guys that show them little to no respect?

In the end, its a matter of personal integrity, which is something that can be found in varying degrees in each individual.  There are many, many women in my past whom I treated with nothing but respect and kindness who went on to pursue some guy who wouldn't even give them the time of day.  To add insult to injury, these same women would then call me up and ask me for advice on how to "attract" these kinds of guys.

After putting up with that kind of thing for a while, a guy quickly learns to adapt his approach to fit the situation.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

Put yourself in the guy's shoes for a moment -- would you spend a lot of time, energy (and sometimes money) trying to "romance"  women when you see so many girls going for the guys that show them little to no respect?

In the end, its a matter of personal integrity, which is something that can be found in varying degrees in each individual.  There are many, many women in my past whom I treated with nothing but respect and kindness who went on to pursue some guy who wouldn't even give them the time of day.  To add insult to injury, these same women would then call me up and ask me for advice on how to "attract" these kinds of guys.

After putting up with that kind of thing for a while, a guy quickly learns to adapt his approach to fit the situation.

Um, is that avatar of yours a picture you've taken of yourself?

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

i would have been the odd sample in that study...

Nice one Scott... I have always thought bi-sexuality is as likely in men as it is in women, just that women are more likely to admit it, openly get aroused by women and try it, due to negative societal stigma surrounding homosexual acts between men.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

On the topic, I had the hottest dream about a girl last night. I don't know where I got her from but she was gorgeous, and when I was touching her I swear I could actually feel my fingers inside her vagina, it made me wake up with a jump, because the sensation was so real. I've never had that before.

nihilonx

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

Yes, its me.  I thought that it might be in keeping with the spirit of the site -- its just not fair that us guys get to see so much of you ladies, but you get to see so little of us in return.

Staying on topic, I've had men come on to me physically (often at raves, but also once at a beach party and also at a moontribe gathering) but it just never appealed to me.  Even though I try to be open-minded about it, its just not something that I am into.  I think I just find the female body much more sexually attractive than that of the male, and its actually a turn off for me personally when a guy touches me in a sexual way.  With that said, I have nothing against homosexuality whatsoever; its just not my thing and I'm not at all curious.

I think that women tend to be far more sensual than men.  One thing that I've noted is that both men's and women's magazines that deal with sexual topics tend to put women on the covers regardless of their target demographic.  Maybe deep within maybe we all recognize the inherent beauty of the female form, and we worship it accordingly.  This might be why more women enjoy exploring bi-sexuality -- not just because of the social stigma attatched to male sexuality, but also because women seem to be a lot more sexy than men in general.

Of course, I could be biased.

(By the way, your dream echoes a novel that I am writing about two characters who are spirituatlly bonded.  In the last scene that I wrote, the main character wakes up with a tingling sensation in his forehead where the other character had kissed him in his dreams.  I find that kind of thing fascinating...)

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

I think that women tend to be far more sensual than men.  One thing that I've noted is that both men's and women's magazines that deal with sexual topics tend to put women on the covers regardless of their target demographic.  Maybe deep within maybe we all recognize the inherent beauty of the female form, and we worship it accordingly.  This might be why more women enjoy exploring bi-sexuality -- not just because of the social stigma attatched to male sexuality, but also because women seem to be a lot more sexy than men in general.

I would think this is more due to mens magazines taking it for granted that men are the sexually active pursuers, and so wish to view the OBJECT that they desire. While on women's magazines, women are interacted with as the object of that desire and are presented with an example of how they should look to attain the required male desire or patronage.

I don't believe women are inherently more beautiful than men. I refuse to believe women are inherently more sensual than men either, I just think current society adheres to this view of male and female and utlizes it's ubiquitous institutions so that we all believe it to be 'natural' or 'innate'. The way that these conceptions of male and female and the attributes we give to these catagories, are in constant flux across history and differ across cultural divides in our own time, it shows that it is not natural or innate but a social construct that we are fed from so young an age we are no longer capable of discerning it from instinctive primal functions.

It's interesting that Darwin, when studying for his theory of evolution noted that the female is the one who choses the mate, but because of the pressure of his victorian social conditioning he deliberately sought a way to undermind his own findings. Now I've heard many men say in this forum that the females pick these days, perhaps as it should be perhaps not, but it is recognised that the male in nature is frequently the more ostentatous and adorned and parades his beauty inorder to be chosen as a mate. However this is not always the case, and in the animal kingdom women are not always the ones who nuture the young either, so anything goes.

Markk02474

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

I don't believe women are inherently more beautiful than men. I refuse to believe women are inherently more sensual than men either, I just think current society adheres to this view of male and female and utlizes it's ubiquitous institutions so that we all believe it to be 'natural' or 'innate'...

Most women must be suckers for the dominant paridigm regarding men.

If a man doesn't behave "masculine" then he won't be attractive or respected. Thus not getting a female mate, or sex if he does have one. Sensitivity is considered a "female" trait and men with too much without enough butch counterbalance are of no interest to women. In this era where many men grew up with feminist mothers, women seeking men are tired of these whimps and want idealized blue-collor, real men. This is why Aussie men are liked in the States - they weren't castrated by their feminist mothers and have spunk.

So, men wanting success, can't behave or work on sensitivity. Or else they leave their high powered job at night for a couple hours of sissy-boy time with their dom. Bi-men are as popular with straight women as bi-women with lesbians. The men are considered Typhoid Mary's at best, and a mate feels like she can't win against competition for him. Most aren't keen on sharing either.

Women have always been bigger suckers for societal rules. Take genital mutilation. Its the mothers that sneak off and do this to daughters. Beauty pagents - notice all the ads are for women's products: tampons, make-up, zit cream etc.. The audience is female. So, when it comes down to how men will behave, its what ever will get them laid, and that's not being sensitive and a nice guy. Its still the buff bad boy.

nihilonx

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

I don't believe women are inherently more beautiful than men. I refuse to believe women are inherently more sensual than men either, I just think current society adheres to this view of male and female and utlizes it's ubiquitous institutions so that we all believe it to be 'natural' or 'innate'.

While my rational mind agrees with your logic, my natural bias still makes me see women as being far more 'inherently' beautiful and sensual than men.

And with each and every visit to this site, that belief is only reinforced on a daily basis.  I suppose that if I were a woman, I might see it differently but as I'm a guy, I have to say that I find the female form -- especially yours -- far more appealing than that of the male.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

While my rational mind agrees with your logic, my natural bias still makes me see women as being far more 'inherently' beautiful and sensual than men.

And with each and every visit to this site, that belief is only reinforced on a daily basis.  I suppose that if I were a woman, I might see it differently but as I'm a guy, I have to say that I find the female form -- especially yours -- far more appealing than that of the male.

Ah, flattery will get your everywhere.

I'm not quibbling over the fact that women are clearly portrayed and behave (in general) in a far more sensual way in society, neither am I saying that it isn't perfectly normal and natural for a heterosexual male to find more sexual beauty in a female than in the same sex. I'm can not even claim that I don't find myself subject to the same biases, I do find women to be more beautiful and more sensual than men, but I am not prepared to state it as an absolute or a universal truth, as I just think a lot of these things are about social mores that are imprinted on us so young that we can not pick apart what is natural and inherent to the sexes and what is constructed for us by society. The claims you make are common in most men and women in our (western) society, but they are not true of all men and women in our own society, let alone across time and cultural divides. They are not fixed things in our nature either, and to describe them as such closes your mind to the possibility of a change that could be beneficial to both sexes.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

Most women must be suckers for the dominant paridigm regarding men.

If a man doesn't behave "masculine" then he won't be attractive or respected. Thus not getting a female mate, or sex if he does have one. Sensitivity is considered a "female" trait and men with too much without enough butch counterbalance are of no interest to women.

Look, some of what you say is true but some of what you say is utter CRAP! I don't think women reject sensitivity but I do think they reject insecurity and weakness. When these traits mascarade as sensitivity then they are rebuffed. I think being sensitive is being able to express and show a diverse range of emtotions with clarity and comfort and to be able to communicate effectively, logically and compassionately with reason and patience. If a man can not do that then he is socially and emotionally retarded and I would toss him on the scrap heap.

In this era where many men grew up with feminist mothers, women seeking men are tired of these whimps and want idealized blue-collor, real men. This is why Aussie men are liked in the States - they weren't castrated by their feminist mothers and have spunk.

Your generalization about Aussie men implies that you adhere to the misconception that Australia is a country full of crocadile dundees. You should visit Melbourne, there are some fucking gorgeous, creative, intelligent, sensitive, some of them effeminate, men here that do very well with the ladies thank you. CASTRATED BY THERE FEMINIST MOTHERS!!!! What the fuck? So women stand up in the seventies to claim long deserved equal rights and men feel like there penises have been cut off because there mother had a fucking back bone and did something about the inequity of society? And if men do feel like that who had feminst mothers, what makes you think the states is so different to Australia, do you think feminism didn't get to Australia? have you heard of Germain Greer?

So, men wanting success, can't behave or work on sensitivity. Or else they leave their high powered job at night for a couple hours of sissy-boy time with their dom. Bi-men are as popular with straight women as bi-women with lesbians. The men are considered Typhoid Mary's at best, and a mate feels like she can't win against competition for him. Most aren't keen on sharing either..

How do you know how popular bi men are with straight women? You got some research you want to reveal that will shed some light on this, being neither a bi man or a straight women I would guess you know little if anything in fact, but I am neither of those things so I don't know either. As a bi woman, I would love to see more bi men.

Women have always been bigger suckers for societal rules. Take genital mutilation. Its the mothers that sneak off and do this to daughters. Beauty pagents - notice all the ads are for women's products: tampons, make-up, zit cream etc.. The audience is female. So, when it comes down to how men will behave, its what ever will get them laid, and that's not being sensitive and a nice guy. Its still the buff bad boy.

You think the issue of  genital mutilation is so simple, the women are cutting their daughters clitorises off so they are the ones that make and adhere to the rules. These countries where ritual female circumcision occurs see the most heinous human rights violations against women in all the world. Women who don't adhere to the rules suffer serious consequences, so you damn right their mothers cut their daughters genitles up so they can fit in and get a husband and be seen as sexually clean, because the altrnative is so much fucking worse. Besides since gods covenant with Abreham men have been cutting up their baby boys penises at eight days old. Your right women have been the bigger "suckers", because they get the raw end of the bargain that they allow men to dish out to them. The effects of over three millenia of oppression doesn't just wash away with the first few decades of emmancipation. Anyway, There is plenty of advertising for male beauty products these days, and most girls want a guy  that looks fit and healthy and groomed, they don't want some sweating stinking ape with a club in one hand and the other picking his arse.

Markk02474

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

Look, some of what you say is true but some of what you say is utter CRAP! I don't think women reject sensitivity but I do think they reject insecurity and weakness. When these traits mascarade as sensitivity then they are rebuffed. I think being sensitive is being able to express and show a diverse range of emtotions with clarity and comfort and to be able to communicate effectively, logically and compassionately with reason and patience. If a man can not do that then he is socially and emotionally retarded and I would toss him on the scrap heap.

OK, you're correct. Men are allowed more emotions than anger and desire. They are called "friends". Many women are not sure what to do with a man who isn't a Neanderthal, give up, and declare he must be gay or married (house broken). One more for the myth - "All the good ones are gay or married."

I was only in Sydney and never encountered wussy poms there. Just the condescending arse-hole poms. But, as public/boarding school boys are known to do, I'm sure more dabbleing went on in the more pommy parts of Oz than by ockers in the bush. Things have changed here too: Teen to mid 20's EMO boys can do OK in the goth/punk/arsty/rave scene now. A guy with emotions unwilling to hide them has few target markets. That one and the crunchy granola set. He has to take up cigarettes for the first and give up animal products for the second. Chances are many of both are in therapy and/or on meds or self-medicating. Then you have to wear what ever uniforms the group dictates... black/glam or hemp/burlap. Its just easier to play the insensitive yabo and go for the rest.

Your generalization about Aussie men implies that you adhere to the misconception that Australia is a country full of crocadile dundees. You should visit Melbourne, there are some fucking gorgeous, creative, intelligent, sensitive, some of them effeminate, men here that do very well with the ladies thank you. CASTRATED BY THERE FEMINIST MOTHERS!!!! What the fuck? So women stand up in the seventies to claim long deserved equal rights and men feel like there penises have been cut off because there mother had a fucking back bone and did something about the inequity of society? And if men do feel like that who had feminst mothers, what makes you think the states is so different to Australia, do you think feminism didn't get to Australia? have you heard of Germain Greer?

We had Mary Daily here, "Off our Backs", and Andrea Dworkin. During that era, lesbians were politically incorrect for doing G-spot stimulation because putting anything in their sacred place represented the rape and domination of women by men over the eons. That was about the time that testosterone was declared the root of all evil that promoted aggression, crime, fights, and every war in human history. The attitude was anyone with testicles was a crime waiting to happen. "On Our Backs" and the pro-sex feminist backlash responded to the anti-sex feminists, but its taken time to undo the damage.. You're not old enough to have experienced the bad, anti-penetration days of feminism. The anti-steroid stigma is still here from those anti-testosterone days, and by the way 'roid rage occurs in 8% or fewer males on high dosages (search for articles by H. Pope in PubMed, paid for by DEA money). Otherwise those drugs just make one stronger and healthier (hence athlete use) and look better (single male, actor, model use). No one wants to fund studies, because they don't want that answer for off-patent drugs.

I would love to see more bi men.

I'm up for trying most anything given the opportunity. When its not my thing, I take the knowledge and move on. I've lost opportunities with women I've liked either because they've assumed I was gay/bi or not interested. Pardon me for not talking to your tits! Or not quitting the room when women discuss female trouble, or occationally flirting like a woman to get better service. Its not connonical male behavior, but  I'm comfortable in my sexuality and doesn't mean I suck dick.

Once in a while there is a craigslist posting by a woman who wants to watch two guys REALLY go at it, then do her. That's rare. Most women don't want their husbands bringing home any STD's and assume the risk is much higher if he has a larger partner (cess) pool. Logic about safety only goes so far to combat a primitive emotion like fear.

You think the issue of  genital mutilation is so simple, the women are cutting their daughters clitorises off so they are the ones that make and adhere to the rules. These countries where ritual female circumcision occurs see the most heinous human rights violations against women in all the world. Women who don't adhere to the rules suffer serious consequences, so you damn right their mothers cut their daughters genitles up so they can fit in and get a husband and be seen as sexually clean, because the altrnative is so much fucking worse. Besides since gods covenant with Abreham men have been cutting up their baby boys penises at eight days old. Your right women have been the bigger "suckers", because they get the raw end of the bargain that they allow men to dish out to them. The effects of over three millenia of oppression doesn't just wash away with the first few decades of emmancipation.

Mothers encouraged their sons to go to Canada during the Viet Nam police action. I suppose they could have cut off an appendage or poked out an eye instead and he would have gotten unfit for duty status. Instead, leaving town was presented as an option without the ability to stay in school or pull strings and sort-of be in the Coast Guard.

I gave another example where seperatist, lesbian feminists were doing themselves harm with no men or external forces at work. They had already told men to bugger off and then went to extreme lengths to exorcise reminders of reproductive behaviors. Oh, and being a big, fat, ugly, ungroomed dyke was a political statement against (male dominated) society, so chow down at potlucks sister! Horay!

Anyway, There is plenty of advertising for male beauty products these days, and most girls want a guy  that looks fit and healthy and groomed, they don't want some sweating stinking ape with a club in one hand and the other picking his arse.

A huge, untapped market, wasn't it? Now that women make their own money, a guy needs something else to bring to the table. The Ken doll. I try to use unscented products and don't care who they're marketed at, but, yeah, now there are so many more skin care products "formulated just for men" or some shite. While women and Madison Avenue are heaping more expectations on to men, could you suggest women all spend a little more time at the gym or doing sport themselves?

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

OK, you're correct. Men are allowed more emotions than anger and desire. They are called "friends". Many women are not sure what to do with a man who isn't a Neanderthal, give up, and declare he must be gay or married (house broken). One more for the myth - "All the good ones are gay or married."

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, we have obviosly have very different perceptions of what women want.

I was only in Sydney and never encountered wussy poms there. Just the condescending arse-hole poms. But, as public/boarding school boys are known to do, I'm sure more dabbleing went on in the more pommy parts of Oz than by ockers in the bush.

You are aware that the term Poms refers to English people aren't you? 

Things have changed here too: Teen to mid 20's EMO boys can do OK in the goth/punk/arsty/rave scene now. A guy with emotions unwilling to hide them has few target markets. That one and the crunchy granola set. He has to take up cigarettes for the first and give up animal products for the second. Chances are many of both are in therapy and/or on meds or self-medicating. Then you have to wear what ever uniforms the group dictates... black/glam or hemp/burlap. Its just easier to play the insensitive yabo and go for the rest.

Don't you think that all social/ age/ ethnic/ religious group adheres to a particular type of fashion uniform dictated by that group. It's not just teens to mid twenties, is it. There really are very few truly individual people. I think your showing your age with your denigration about this group, I also think you could do with abit of therapy yourself, by the way.

We had Mary Daily here, "Off our Backs", and Andrea Dworkin. During that era, lesbians were politically incorrect for doing G-spot stimulation because putting anything in their sacred place represented the rape and domination of women by men over the eons. That was about the time that testosterone was declared the root of all evil that promoted aggression, crime, fights, and every war in human history. The attitude was anyone with testicles was a crime waiting to happen. "On Our Backs" and the pro-sex feminist backlash responded to the anti-sex feminists, but its taken time to undo the damage.. You're not old enough to have experienced the bad, anti-penetration days of feminism.

I've read some of Andrea Dworkin and I found it very depressing indeed. I think women were very angry about the way they had been treated, and rightfully so, but it went too far and has sadly been very deterimental to feminist movements. I'm glad I'm not old enough to have lived through that but I think it does have it's effects on this generation; most girls/ women these days would not want to identify themselves as feminists, which is a shame because it can be a positive thing for any woman to explore, but the stigma attached to it when you discuss the issues in a public sphere is frustrating at the very least. It's much the same with the anti-porn feminst groups and the pro-porn feminsit groups that are embroiled in debate. People just get sick of the division and squabbling.

I'm up for trying most anything given the opportunity. When its not my thing, I take the knowledge and move on. I've lost opportunities with women I've liked either because they've assumed I was gay/bi or not interested. Pardon me for not talking to your tits! Or not quitting the room when women discuss female trouble, or occationally flirting like a woman to get better service. Its not connonical male behavior, but  I'm comfortable in my sexuality and doesn't mean I suck dick.

I'm sorry you've had women ditch you because they were uncomfortable with your sexuality. If you are open minded as you say you are you're probably better off with out bigots like that anyway.

Mothers encouraged their sons to go to Canada during the Viet Nam police action. I suppose they could have cut off an appendage or poked out an eye instead and he would have gotten unfit for duty status. Instead, leaving town was presented as an option without the ability to stay in school or pull strings and sort-of be in the Coast Guard.

If you are suggesting that all the women of countries where genital mutilation is performed on girls, could merely just up sticks and emigrate to avoid the mores of their country, and abandon their homeland, their male relatives and everything they've known then you really are being short sighted. Besides they don't have canada just across the border either.

A huge, untapped market, wasn't it? Now that women make their own money, a guy needs something else to bring to the table. The Ken doll. I try to use unscented products and don't care who they're marketed at, but, yeah, now there are so many more skin care products "formulated just for men" or some shite. While women and Madison Avenue are heaping more expectations on to men, could you suggest women all spend a little more time at the gym or doing sport themselves?

DOn't you think men already heap enough expectations on women to be feminie? Why begrudge it being reciprocated? Anyway, I think women are spending more time in the gym. It would be great if they played more sport and got more physically fit, I think the athletic female physique will come into fashion, and probably soon. It just makes more sense to be strong and healthy, than weak and skinny and emaciated. Well it does to me anyway.

Markk02474

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

I think we'll have to agree to disagree, we have obviosly have very different perceptions of what women want.

I'm writing about what they do, not what they say, which are entirely different. Nice girls couldn't just hook up, they need a few drinks to blame it on. Other women swear off bad boys and date another because that's what turns them on. Now you're saying women want emo boys, when most actually fuck more macho men and like emo's for friends. I'm not the one with the dischord.

You are aware that the term Poms refers to English people aren't you?
[/QUOTE}

Protector Of Mother England (POMe) means more than just being English. It has derogatory connotations of supporting, maintaining, and promoting the English way of life and attitudes despite being in an uncivililized colony. "Brit" isn't an insult. Yank either. but seppo is. Cunt wouldn't be in" You took the last tinnie, you cunt! Its your shout now!"

[QUOTE]
Don't you think that all social/ age/ ethnic/ religious group adheres to a particular type of fashion uniform dictated by that group. It's not just teens to mid twenties, is it. There really are very few truly individual people. I think your showing your age with your denigration about this group, I also think you could do with abit of therapy yourself, by the way.

I agree that there is always some kind of uniform, but its restrictions are the inverse of the group presence and strength of identity. Real lesbians used to require buzz cuts, Doc's, jeans, no bra, a wife beater, perhaps a flanel, and black leather jacket. Now they can wear most anything, even lipstick. The uniform for gay men has loosened up, as has that for many office workers. Goths and punks here are still pretty stuck to the same uniforms. I went to Man Ray on its final days and the crowd and music was much the same as 15 years before. More tame if anything. Women would commonly dance shirtless in just their bras, gay men shirtless always, but now more straight men dance shirtless, even at straight clibs. Perhaps that's just due to an increase in women wishing to view men a sex objects. Having a sense of history and dating queer girls before you ever did does show my age. I'm not sure therapy would help me change reality or the behaviors of others.

I've read some of Andrea Dworkin and I found it very depressing indeed. I think women were very angry about the way they had been treated, and rightfully so, but it went too far and has sadly been very deterimental to feminist movements. I'm glad I'm not old enough to have lived through that but I think it does have it's effects on this generation; most girls/ women these days would not want to identify themselves as feminists, which is a shame because it can be a positive thing for any woman to explore, but the stigma attached to it when you discuss the issues in a public sphere is frustrating at the very least. It's much the same with the anti-porn feminst groups and the pro-porn feminsit groups that are embroiled in debate. People just get sick of the division and squabbling.

Kudo's to you for having read some of her writings. Most college girls here have never heard of her. They generally seem apathetic about feminism and reject the title from thinking the war is won and there is no need to ostracise themselves. They rather buy their no fat latte' and go shopping then attend a NOW meeting or kiss-in protest. I can't even remember the last time I saw a Act-Up die-in of any size, and Pride gets more conservative every year.

I'm not up on pro vs anti porn feminism. The latter seem fucked in the head. Romance novels are clitoradica and always have been. PC or not, they sell, and to women. Just more thought / behavior dischord. Is erotica with pictures worse because men enjoy them more? I'd rather see violence like football censored before porn.

I'm sorry you've had women ditch you because they were uncomfortable with your sexuality. If you are open minded as you say you are you're probably better off with out bigots like that anyway.

You got that backwards. I'm quite comfortable in knowing what I like. Sadly, its fairly vanilla and nothing trendy like leather, latex, whips, chains, BBWs, piss, or feet. Just fit, healthy, bright, and open-minded women. If a straight actor plays a gay character or vise versa, that says nothing about their orientation. Wearing black vinyl pants to Man Ray doen't mean I want a spanking either. Yeah, I'm way better, with lesbian friends, my cat, and wank site.

If you are suggesting that all the women of countries where genital mutilation is performed on girls, could merely just up sticks and emigrate to avoid the mores of their country, and abandon their homeland, their male relatives and everything they've known then you really are being short sighted. Besides they don't have canada just across the border either.

OK, right again. they file for political/human rights asylum in the States It is impractical, but illustrative of how women often are the most supportive of the status quo and willing to violate the civil rights of each other to protect institutions. To clarify that point, I did add another example devoid of male influence.

DOn't you think men already heap enough expectations on women to be feminie? Why begrudge it being reciprocated? Anyway, I think women are spending more time in the gym. It would be great if they played more sport and got more physically fit, I think the athletic female physique will come into fashion, and probably soon. It just makes more sense to be strong and healthy, than weak and skinny and emaciated. Well it does to me anyway.

Girly-girls aren't my thing, except I do prefer shaving down under so I'm not spitting out hairs or getting razor burn. I'm not for any additional expections beyond health and Americans returning to fitness levels of 20-30 years ago. BBW is not beautiful. I'm mildly sensitive to chemical fragrances and rather that no one be encouraged to wear them. The expectations I do begrudge are mainly that I grow 2" to reach 6' and lie about my age as women do because most here demand men younger than them. I can't do much about my height or age and most women older than me are fat and sexually unattractive. I can't change that much either. One option is the equivelent of going to Canada going where women's expectaions differ or importing one (Russian bride).

wantingscott

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

Sadly, its fairly vanilla and nothing trendy like leather, latex, whips, chains, BBWs, piss, or feet.

um, on a side note. when i'm at a urinal at a concert or stadium, and there's a line, and i need to get my piss flowing FAST i have a trick.  I used to sunbathe with this girl on our lunch hour, a golden-haired beauty, tan as carmel and blonde peachfuzz wonder on her skin.

so- when i need to pee FAST, i imagine her sitting under me, the back of her head, her naked tan peachfuzz back and she says "Scott, pee down my back." it works EVERY TIME... the gold on the gold.

Scott

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that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

nihilonx

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

The claims you make are common in most men and women in our (western) society, but they are not true of all men and women in our own society, let alone across time and cultural divides. They are not fixed things in our nature either, and to describe them as such closes your mind to the possibility of a change that could be beneficial to both sexes.

Ah, how I love a strong woman.

You are absolutely right in this respect.  I majored in the Humanities in school with an emphasis on Greek studies (the proverbial "Classics") so I do understand that the male form was once just as highly regarded as that of the female.  Likewise, I can see the inherent beauty and sensuality of works such as Michaelangelo's statue of "David" as well as the ancient statues of gods like Apollo and Dionysus, but you are right -- this is simply not something that is as common today, for better or for worse.

Still, I stand by my opinion that there is nothing more sensual in the world than a beautiful woman -- not even Brad Pitt in "Meet Joe Black".

SCSIgirl

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

um, on a side note. when i'm at a urinal at a concert or stadium, and there's a line, and i need to get my piss flowing FAST i have a trick.  I used to sunbathe with this girl on our lunch hour, a golden-haired beauty, tan as carmel and blonde peachfuzz wonder on her skin.

so- when i need to pee FAST, i imagine her sitting under me, the back of her head, her naked tan peachfuzz back and she says "Scott, pee down my back." it works EVERY TIME... the gold on the gold.

Scott

You'd have a tough time at Bay Meadows (A horse track in the Bay Area).  Before the re-model,  the men's room had 1 urinal:  A long pig trough on which participants stood on either side, facing each other.  .........Most guys looked down.

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"Apple of my Eye", "bated breath", "brave new world", "caught red-handed" - all coined by Shakespeare.

Markk02474

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

so- when i need to pee FAST, i imagine her sitting under me, the back of her head, her naked tan peachfuzz back and she says "Scott, pee down my back." it works EVERY TIME... the gold on the gold.

Scott

I wish I had a way to break the seal. Oddly, that subject's never come up hanging out with my mates. I usually have to "fake-it" by waiting a bit, giving a couple shakes, flushing anyway, and washing my hands. Then, go have a few more drinks until the feeling becomes most urgent. Thanks to comments by you and Linda, I need to solve this problem ASAP before prostrate BPH keeps me awake all night!

On the bi-topic, once I was in the gent's at a urinal during a women's night. A woman walking in and froze when she saw me. Using my most nelly voice and motioning back to the stalls (with my neck and head) I said: "Go ahead Honey, I'm just finishing up!" and she did. Basically, if I have no interest or play with a woman, I'll play gay if it will help her relax and be less fearful. I hardly look like an ex-con with gang and prison tats, or a young black male, but it still offends me that many times on the street women will tense and perceve me as a violent threat. Yeah, I have a penis, but that doesn't mean I want to hurt you.

Earth to women: An unenthusiastic or dead fuck isn't worth my trouble, and a drunk, semi-comatose girl, I'll stick with holding her hair back while she chunders somewhere with the least embarassment and mess (and deny I saw her barf the next day). So, an up-tight, fearful woman, I don't even change my cadence, or just cross to the opposite side of the street. No thanks.

BTW, Scott, did you ever mention your indifference if she wanted to work on her tan lines without having to go all the way to Jones Beach?

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Bi-curious - Fashion or Fact?

I'm writing about what they do, not what they say, which are entirely different. Nice girls couldn't just hook up, they need a few drinks to blame it on. Other women swear off bad boys and date another because that's what turns them on. Now you're saying women want emo boys, when most actually fuck more macho men and like emo's for friends. I'm not the one with the dischord

You are writing about what you think most women do, and getting it wrong in my opinion. I am not saying most women want "emo boys" just that I don't think the trends you talk of are really as common as you are making out. It's just stale old crap trying to justify treating women like shit and acting like an emotional cripple, it has been regurgitated over and over again about women and it's just boring me. 

Protector Of Mother England (POMe) means more than just being English. It has derogatory connotations of supporting, maintaining, and promoting the English way of life and attitudes despite being in an uncivililized colony. "Brit" isn't an insult. Yank either. but seppo is. Cunt wouldn't be in" You took the last tinnie, you cunt! Its your shout now!"

Well if this is what it means to you then I think you know very little about culture in Australia. I don't think Sydney and Melbourne are "pommy" as you call them. DO you really think the only true Australian is a sheep shearer in the outback? And the rest are just imitators of the english?

You got that backwards. I'm quite comfortable in knowing what I like. Sadly, its fairly vanilla and nothing trendy like leather, latex, whips, chains, BBWs, piss, or feet. Just fit, healthy, bright, and open-minded women. If a straight actor plays a gay character or vise versa, that says nothing about their orientation. Wearing black vinyl pants to Man Ray doen't mean I want a spanking either. Yeah, I'm way better, with lesbian friends, my cat, and wank site.

How did I get it backward? you said you would try anything once and that women have ditched you because you act bi or homosexual. I didn't even talk about what you like, just said that if a girl has dumped you because you act in a sexually ambiguous way your probably better off with out a bigot like that. You say you like open minded women, so being dumped by someone who is that narrow minded is a blessing in disguise. 

OK, right again. they file for political/human rights asylum in the States It is impractical, but illustrative of how women often are the most supportive of the status quo and willing to violate the civil rights of each other to protect institutions. To clarify that point, I did add another example devoid of male influence.

I am right and you basically, are completely wrong. I don't think it is illistrative of how women are the most supportive of the status quo, I think men are probably more supportive and commit far more violations of women's civil rights in order to quash any opposition or dissent to these practices. All it proves is that women do adhere to heinous practices dictated to them by men inside mysogynistic hegemonic patriarchal societies.