#26 June 29th, 2005 03:18 PM

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Art & Men!

For the first time ever I find myself cheering a comment by EgonArbus. I think the idea that men can not be art is a complete fallacy, and is based on hegemonic male heterosexuality. This view is pushed so strongly and ubiquitously that no other perspectives are getting a look in. I have said before I would love to see men on this site, even if the good folios were few and far between.

I also wanted to add...

This view is pushed so strongly and ubiquitously that no other perspectives are getting a look in. Michael Focault did a study on the disciplined body, and Focault felt Jeremy Benthams prison model 'the panopticon' best expressed the idea of the omnipresent judging in society that internalises into individual self discipline. I think this idea can be extend and adapted to this topic. Heterosexuality has become increasingly dominant since the rise in power of the semetic faiths. The idea of heterosexuality that is propgated has always been of the male perspective as the active connoiseur of the object of his attraction. In the twentieth century with clothes becoming more scanty this perspective has become far more openly sexual but still the male view of the woman reigns. We are socialised by society's institutions and the media from so early an age that even women take on this male perspective. This heterosexual male view that women taken on is present in the way women are more likely to judge and be critical of other women on their appearance than they are to cast there judgement on to men; where as heterosexual men are not nearly so judgmental of each other, and prefer to observe only women in this light

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Art & Men!

In my mind, at least, one of the overarching goals of ISM is to change, or at least present an alternative of, the representation of women in mainstream "porn" or "erotica" or whatever you want to call what is essentially naked pictures. 

This is attempted by literally putting the camera into women's hands, thus giving them complete and utter control over how they, and their bodies, are represented.

Because women are the mostly commonly and most egregiously exploited, abused, used, etc., I think it is imperative that we protect this goal of the site.  It just wouldn't mean the same thing if men contributed.

That's really my concern, far more so than the fact that I just don't really dig naked men. 

Women do suffer heinously from the stereotyping in mainstream porn but I think it may be equally important, for men and women, to change, or provide an alternative, to the male stereotypes that are propagated in there as well.

SCSIgirl

Member

Re: Art & Men!

LOL (i did so i can say it)

Part of my daily routine is making a jigsaw out if one of the pictures from the days folio.  I get a kick out of finding the bits and pieces and putting it all together.  Somehow I don't think it would be as fun with pictures of men though.

I'm waiting for the thread to start about hair and nude men.  Shoud they shave their tits?  Their backs?  Their balls?  What is the women's position going to be on pubic hair on men?

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"Apple of my Eye", "bated breath", "brave new world", "caught red-handed" - all coined by Shakespeare.

Manring

Member

Re: Art & Men!

I'm waiting for the thread to start about hair and nude men.  Shoud they shave their tits?  Their backs?  Their balls?  What is the women's position going to be on pubic hair on men?

About as wide, I'll bet, as men's position on pubic hair on women. All over the spectrum.

My vote, by the way, in regards to having male folios on this site, is no. A brother site dedicated to males is a fine idea, but I believe this site is best left for females shooting themselves. I further think that many females would not be as likely to shoot for ISM if it included males.

It's an interesting discussion, though, and has brought up some interesting points.

Manring

wantingscott

Member

Re: Art & Men!

On the other hand, I do get aroused looking at well-done photographs of women, like the ones on this site. The arousal looking at women seems to be as much sensual as sexual.

I'd like to hear what other women have to say.

yes. that's very true, i believe. i think, and have often said, that women are created in the image of angels and brought beauty to Humanity. men are so coarse, rough. my wife enjoys this site, as well.

Scott

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that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

meristim

Member

Re: Art & Men!

wow...please don't shave...if you must...gently, please.

I'm waiting for the thread to start about hair and nude men.  Shoud they shave their tits?  Their backs?  Their balls?  What is the women's position going to be on pubic hair on men?

Belgareth

Member

Re: Art & Men!

wow...please don't shave...if you must...gently, please.

Oh Dear! That's leaves me out before I get in!

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Belgareth

Member

Re: Art & Men!

In my mind, at least, one of the overarching goals of ISM is to change, or at least present an alternative of, the representation of women in mainstream "porn" or "erotica" or whatever you want to call what is essentially naked pictures. 

This is attempted by literally putting the camera into women's hands, thus giving them complete and utter control over how they, and their bodies, are represented.

Because women are the mostly commonly and most egregiously exploited, abused, used, etc., I think it is imperative that we protect this goal of the site.  It just wouldn't mean the same thing if men contributed.

That's really my concern, far more so than the fact that I just don't really dig naked men. 

I will agree with you LIz. This is a female based site (even more so now that Head has taken the sidelines). I wonder if the interest, from the male population of this site, of shooting themselves is motivated by the wish to experience the same thing as the female contributors, or whether it is motivated by the existence of the female populus in the forum? No, I'm not being cynical, I'm being curious.

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voyeur2

Member

Re: Art & Men!

I will agree with you LIz. This is a female based site (even more so now that Head has taken the sidelines). I wonder if the interest, from the male population of this site, of shooting themselves is motivated by the wish to experience the same thing as the female contributors, or whether it is motivated by the existence of the female populus in the forum? No, I'm not being cynical, I'm being curious.

I can only express my own motivation.  It is a desire to experience the same type of self expression through photography as I see the women benefitting from.  I do not think of is as an opportunity to 'flash' to a bunch of female watchers.  As a matter of fact I suspect the majority of sponsors is male, but it is not an overwhelming majority.

Figures would be nice to know on the percent division.

And proposing it on this site is basically because I don't have any idea where else to take an art installation like this, and acknowledge it is being proposed by a very few male sponsors.

Ideas, sites to approach anybody?

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Have I ever lied to you before?

Belgareth

Member

Re: Art & Men!

I can only express my own motivation.  It is a desire to experience the same type of self expression through photography as I see the women benefitting from.  I do not think of is as an opportunity to 'flash' to a bunch of female watchers.  As a matter of fact I suspect the majority of sponsors is male, but it is not an overwhelming majority.

Figures would be nice to know on the percent division.

And proposing it on this site is basically because I don't have any idea where else to take an art installation like this, and acknowledge it is being proposed by a very few male sponsors.

Ideas, sites to approach anybody?

I didn't really doubt your motivation V2 but I had this nagging doubt at the back of my mind. I will admit, as I have done previously, I think it is a good idea for the male of the species to want to be acknowledged in the same way as the females on this site and not be tarred with a "flashers" brush. I would be willing to present a folio and while I accept that contributors are welcome with their partners (or other willing males/females), I am still not sure that it is fair to taint this site with male only images. Perhaps that is something which Head may be investigating.

On a slghtly different tack; I wonder what the average age of the potential male volunteers would be? I would lay a bet that it is somewhat higher than the existing female average.

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nagaloo

Member

Re: Art & Men!

yes. that's very true, i believe. i think, and have often said, that women are created in the image of angels and brought beauty to Humanity. men are so coarse, rough. my wife enjoys this site, as well.

Scott

Most of the referances to angels in the Bible, they are men. Artists have taken the liberty to draw them as women. I have always viewed them as gender neutral. In the movie Constantine the Angel Gabriel ( I think thats the one ) was shown as a non-gender person. Played by a woman.

Stew

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The universe is unfolding as it should, and so are the girls on ISM. I love them all.

EgonArbus

Member

Re: Art & Men!

I also wanted to add...

This view is pushed so strongly and ubiquitously that no other perspectives are getting a look in. Michael Focault did a study on the disciplined body, and Focault felt Jeremy Benthams prison model 'the panopticon' best expressed the idea of the omnipresent judging in society that internalises into individual self discipline. I think this idea can be extend and adapted to this topic. Heterosexuality has become increasingly dominant since the rise in power of the semetic faiths. The idea of heterosexuality that is propgated has always been of the male perspective as the active connoiseur of the object of his attraction. In the twentieth century with clothes becoming more scanty this perspective has become far more openly sexual but still the male view of the woman reigns. We are socialised by society's institutions and the media from so early an age that even women take on this male perspective. This heterosexual male view that women taken on is present in the way women are more likely to judge and be critical of other women on their appearance than they are to cast there judgement on to men; where as heterosexual men are not nearly so judgmental of each other, and prefer to observe only women in this light

Liandra, I'm suspicious and think you jest.  I thought you agreed with everything I've said?  Oh well, nevermind.  Based on the above comments, in which I am in total agreement, I've got an idea: why don't you act on your beliefs?  I propose that you should start getting militant and demand that women have their own country.  A female state, run by and for women.  Sort of like an Israel for women.  Don't know where you could set up this burgeoning state, but boy, what an experiment, eh?

Also, are you familiar with the work of painter Mary Cassatt (late 19th C)?  Primarlly she painted mother and child portraits and, for me, they must be some of the most intimate and tender, life-sustaining, renditions of womanhood ever to be depicted on canvas.  They are full of little touches and caresses and looks and glances between the subjects, and the compositions are so lucid and distracting.  Your eye glides all over the canvas.  A real counterweight to the often tight, rigid, fetishistic, compositions of christian Virgin and Christ-child portraits.   Not only that, but Cassatt's pictures, although depicted in very private and enclosed spaces, seem to advocate social interaction based on the maternal relationship!  I'd try uploading a few examples to whet your appetite, but the technology defeats me.

Belgareth

Member

Re: Art & Men!

Liandra, I'm suspicious and think you jest.  I thought you agreed with everything I've said?  Oh well, nevermind.  Based on the above comments, in which I am in total agreement, I've got an idea: why don't you act on your beliefs?  I propose that you should start getting militant and demand that women have their own country.  A female state, run by and for women.  Sort of like an Israel for women.  Don't know where you could set up this burgeoning state, but boy, what an experiment, eh?

Also, are you familiar with the work of painter Mary Cassatt (late 19th C)?  Primarlly she painted mother and child portraits and, for me, they must be some of the most intimate and tender, life-sustaining, renditions of womanhood ever to be depicted on canvas.  They are full of little touches and caresses and looks and glances between the subjects, and the compositions are so lucid and distracting.  Your eye glides all over the canvas.  A real counterweight to the often tight, rigid, fetishistic, compositions of christian Virgin and Christ-child portraits.   Not only that, but Cassatt's pictures, although depicted in very private and enclosed spaces, seem to advocate social interaction based on the maternal relationship!  I'd try uploading a few examples to whet your appetite, but the technology defeats me.

I Know the Cassett painting and they are an amazing depiction of, not only the relationship between mother and child but also a powerful statement about the entire female viewpoint and though processes whcih, at the time of the painting were not very well received by the male dominated world of art.

I think I have some of those images in one of my archives. If so, I'll fish them out and make them available to anyone who is interested.

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nagaloo

Member

Re: Art & Men!

I can only express my own motivation.  It is a desire to experience the same type of self expression through photography as I see the women benefitting from.  I do not think of is as an opportunity to 'flash' to a bunch of female watchers.  As a matter of fact I suspect the majority of sponsors is male, but it is not an overwhelming majority.

Figures would be nice to know on the percent division.

And proposing it on this site is basically because I don't have any idea where else to take an art installation like this, and acknowledge it is being proposed by a very few male sponsors.

Ideas, sites to approach anybody?

The fact that most of the sponsors are most likely male makes me hesitate just slightly to take Head up on the offer to submit a set. And the number of shooters who do nothing more than watch the comments to their folio must out weigh the few who are very active in the forums by a ton. In fact there are not many who take active part here in total. Most just observe. Yes it would make me feel good to know some of my favorite girls would at least have a look regardless of their reaction. Males have insecurities too, I do at the least. And am learning late in life I didn't have to feel that way. Men and women are more the same than different.
Stew

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The universe is unfolding as it should, and so are the girls on ISM. I love them all.

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Art & Men!

Liandra, I'm suspicious and think you jest.  I thought you agreed with everything I've said?  Oh well, nevermind.  Based on the above comments, in which I am in total agreement, I've got an idea: why don't you act on your beliefs?  I propose that you should start getting militant and demand that women have their own country.  A female state, run by and for women.  Sort of like an Israel for women.  Don't know where you could set up this burgeoning state, but boy, what an experiment, eh?

Ah yes what an experiment, and you feel that to be a logical progression from what I've said about my beliefs? I don't ever remember saying I wanted men obliterated from the world I live in, but to save you from getting confused again I'll just add it as my autosignature so you know in future.

Do you think the isolation would force us to developed parthenogenic capabilities?

Li
Who most deffinitely doesn't want a radical gynocracy

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Art & Men!

I Know the Cassett painting and they are an amazing depiction of, not only the relationship between mother and child but also a powerful statement about the entire female viewpoint and though processes whcih, at the time of the painting were not very well received by the male dominated world of art.

I think I have some of those images in one of my archives. If so, I'll fish them out and make them available to anyone who is interested.

I'd love to see them, I'll give you my email address in the private messages

Torstar

Member

Re: Art & Men!

I can't speak for other women, but that just doesn't get into my Id (Thanks, Liandra, for the perfect phrase).

Perhaps women want to personalize the experience more than men. I can get plenty aroused seeing a naked man that I like and know well, but pictures of a naked man who is a stranger doesn't do much for me sexually. On the other hand, I do get aroused looking at well-done photographs of women, like the ones on this site. The arousal looking at women seems to be as much sensual as sexual.

I'd like to hear what other women have to say.

I think some of the women who post know who their fans are.  If they saw them naked they would know more about the men who appreciate their submissions.  It might be scary. What do you think women, are you game?

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And the third beast came forth from the ground

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Art & Men!

I think some of the women who post know who their fans are.  If they saw them naked they would know more about the men who appreciate their submissions.  It might be scary. What do you think women, are you game?

To be honest...
1) I'm very drunk
2) I don't think it matters what I say, there will never been nude male folios (especially spnonsors) on this site
3) The world is fucked!
4) OH Please! Some one surprise me, just once in my life...

Belgareth

Member

Re: Art & Men!

To be honest...
1) I'm very drunk
2) I don't think it matters what I say, there will never been nude male folios (especially spnonsors) on this site
3) The world is fucked!
4) OH Please! Some one surprise me, just once in my life...

About that email address you mentioned earlier. Let me have it and  I'll send you the Cassatt images. I could suggest I send you a preview folio but that would be out of order!

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MrPicMe

Member

Re: Art & Men!

To be honest...
1) I'm very drunk
2) I don't think it matters what I say, there will never been nude male folios (especially spnonsors) on this site
3) The world is fucked!
4) OH Please! Some one surprise me, just once in my life...

How many "Stash Safes" do you own? You may need another...

EgonArbus

Member

Re: Art & Men!

Ah yes what an experiment, and you feel that to be a logical progression from what I've said about my beliefs? I don't ever remember saying I wanted men obliterated from the world I live in, but to save you from getting confused again I'll just add it as my autosignature so you know in future.

Do you think the isolation would force us to developed parthenogenic capabilities?

Li
Who most deffinitely doesn't want a radical gynocracy

Parthenogenic capabilities?  Is this a serious question or just a Parthian shot? Or is it a complete acceptance of one's esoteric role in the competitive field - sex! Who mentioned anything about the abstinence of men?  Your impulsive stertorous nature shows itself once again (or maybe you're an extremist at heart?).

MrPicMe

Member

Re: Art & Men!

Do you think the isolation would force us to developed parthenogenic capabilities?

...Or you could squat on a sippie-cup filled with ISM members genetic load if it doesn't work out for you.

Torstar

Member

Re: Art & Men!

To be honest...
1) I'm very drunk
2) I don't think it matters what I say, there will never been nude male folios (especially spnonsors) on this site
3) The world is fucked!
4) OH Please! Some one surprise me, just once in my life...

oh

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And the third beast came forth from the ground

zille

Member

Re: Art & Men!

Liandra -- were you actually writing about Focault *while* you were drunk?  If so, I may just have to get on that plane to Australia...

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~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

liandra_dahl

Member

Re: Art & Men!

Liandra -- were you actually writing about Focault *while* you were drunk?  If so, I may just have to get on that plane to Australia...

I'd had a few but I wasn't half as tanked as I was for the "I am drunk, the world is fucked" post I wrote. Sorry to dissapoint.