#1 June 10th, 2005 07:47 PM

Belgareth

Member

Stranger in a Strange Land

I know that this is likely to turn into a very wierd thread but I couldn't help but notice Head's use of the word "grok" in reference to his undersatnding of the French language.

Since reading Heinlien's Stranger in a Strange Land a number of years ago, in which the word "grok" was coined, it has develop a profound meaning for me. It means much more than just understanding, it infers total assimilation of a concept and is as far removed from simply understanding as ego is from id.

I was wondering if any other people here have read the book; whether they were as deeply affected by it as I was and if they attached any profound meaning to the word  grok?

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trebora

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

I've read and reread it a few times. I found it to be a very good read. 

To me Starship troopers was a lot more profound and thought provoking that this was but I think it has more to do with personal thought processes on whether it is moving or not. 

But yeah grok is a cool word.  It fits nicely

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voyeur2

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

I think I have read his whole body of work.  I started in the fifties, and thought Stranger was a watershed to my approach to organized religion, the Halillujya Trail Theory of Ministry as a cleric friend of mine referred to, and Starship Troopers was a good treatment on a number of radical themes.  Guaranteed job.  No welfare. Corporeal punishment for summary convictions, restricted rights to vote, plus innovative approach to heavy infantry etc. etc.  For me there were two better ones from him - The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Time Enough For Love.

In the Sci Fi line, thinking writers include CJ Cherryh, the Cyteen series particularly is a thought provoking set on cloning and trying to recreaate a specific person.

But since I have read roughly 10,000 books, I could go on an on.  Anyone want a recommendation outside of the traditional bestseller stuff - give me a call.

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Belgareth

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

I think I have read his whole body of work.  I started in the fifties, and thought Stranger was a watershed to my approach to organized religion, the Halillujya Trail Theory of Ministry as a cleric friend of mine referred to, and Starship Troopers was a good treatment on a number of radical themes.  Guaranteed job.  No welfare. Corporeal punishment for summary convictions, restricted rights to vote, plus innovative approach to heavy infantry etc. etc.  For me there were two better ones from him - The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, and Time Enough For Love.

In the Sci Fi line, thinking writers include CJ Cherryh, the Cyteen series particularly is a thought provoking set on cloning and trying to recreaate a specific person.

But since I have read roughly 10,000 books, I could go on an on.  Anyone want a recommendation outside of the traditional bestseller stuff - give me a call.

I didn't intend to convert ISM to ISBN but as you mentioned Time Enough for Love, that is one of two books  where the central figure characterises yours-truly. The other is Edding Belgariad - from which I take my nom de keyboard.

Although I enjoy the SciFi of Heinlein, Asimov and very few others, I have a passion for SciFan and the Fantasy of Legend (LegFan doesn't seem to work!). For example Zimmer-Bradley's treatment of the Arthurian legend.

I couldn't even comtemplate the number of books I've read. I know I've got around 3,500 at present but I guess I still have a long way to go to increase my book reading to the rate at which images appear on this site!

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zille

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

I am a HUGE fan of Heinlein!  I have read every one of his books except for a travel-log that I can't find anywhere.

Stranger was my first Heinlein, so it was transformative for me in that way.  I was in high school, and suddenly a whole host of new ideas was injected (in a fun and entertaining manner) into my mind.  I was never the same. 

I was sick with a chronic illness from junior year on, and so I just lay in bed and stuffed my brain full of Heinlein -- the longer books the better!  And I read the 50 or so of my favorite ones over and over again.

Heinlein let me realize that polyamoury was an option, helped me admit I like to be spanked, helped form my political and social notions and moral beliefs. 

I think of him as a kind of father, actually, and he is certainly a mentor.

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centrevom

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Yes, "grok" is a wonderful word.  A word truly missing from the English language until Heinlein coined it.  Does any other language have any word that comes close to it? I can't help thinking that it may exist in some Indian or Chinese languages.

I use it occasionally, and am often pleasantly surprised at how many people understand me without a blink.

Belgareth

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

I am a HUGE fan of Heinlein!  I have read every one of his books except for a travel-log that I can't find anywhere.

Stranger was my first Heinlein, so it was transformative for me in that way.  I was in high school, and suddenly a whole host of new ideas was injected (in a fun and entertaining manner) into my mind.  I was never the same. 

I was sick with a chronic illness from junior year on, and so I just lay in bed and stuffed my brain full of Heinlein -- the longer books the better!  And I read the 50 or so of my favorite ones over and over again.

Heinlein let me realize that polyamoury was an option, helped me admit I like to be spanked, helped form my political and social notions and moral beliefs. 

I think of him as a kind of father, actually, and he is certainly a mentor.

Another member for the Heinlein fanclub! One of the things that makes him a great author is variety of his work and way he skillfully questiona almost all social ethics and morals, without actually destroying any of them. He leaves it to the reader to make the final decisions for themselves.

I own you an apology Zille, although you don't realise it. I didn't have you down as a Heinlein lover - oops I goofed again - now, knowing how much you appreciate his work, I appreciate you even more,

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SCSIgirl

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Yes, "grok" is a wonderful word.  A word truly missing from the English language until Heinlein coined it.  Does any other language have any word that comes close to it? I can't help thinking that it may exist in some Indian or Chinese languages.

I use it occasionally, and am often pleasantly surprised at how many people understand me without a blink.

English has that facinating ability to absorb new ideas,  even from other cultures.  Maybe that is because it is made up of so many different languages and cultures.  Many authors and screenwriters have coined words that so perfectly describe a situation,  it has become the proper word for that situation.

Everyone understands what Catch-22 means  because everyone has/or will be there at some time;  but not everyone has read the book or understands that it's a military regulation.

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zille

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Another member for the Heinlein fanclub! One of the things that makes him a great author is variety of his work and way he skillfully questions almost all social ethics and morals, without actually destroying any of them. He leaves it to the reader to make the final decisions for themselves.

I own you an apology Zille, although you don't realise it. I didn't have you down as a Heinlein lover - oops I goofed again - now, knowing how much you appreciate his work, I appreciate you even more,

Forgiven, Belgareth!  I'm past my early twenties, when just about everything I said was either a direct or indirect quote from him, so how could you have known? 

I agree 100% about what you say about him, above.  He treats his readers like adults -- adults who think, even!

One of the things I love most about Heinlein was that as he got older, his mind kept opening and opening.  That is not common -- most people, as they age, get insular and set in their ways and ideas (my father, as a perfect example!)  But Heinlein kept learning and reaching to new ideas.

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zille

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Oh, and I want to be Friday!   [geeky grin]

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Belgareth

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Oh, and I want to be Friday!   [geeky grin]

Now that you mention it, Friday would suit you very well, almost as well as your birthday suit [grin of understanding]

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voyeur2

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Now that you mention it, Friday would suit you very well, almost as well as your birthday suit [grin of understanding]

A theme that ran through all his books which I took to heart very much was, in your lifetime you can decide to do many things, and it is moral and ethical if you are also willing to personally be responsible for the choices, and endure whatever consequences without whinging.

As a juvenile I liked Tunnel in The Sky.

But oneof his smaller books was a really interesting one as well.  Ask whazzizname where the light saber came from (as an aside)  Double Star.

Ans the other thing that always ran through his books was the passion of the people in them, the strong revelation of unique characters.

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Manring

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

I saw Head's use of grok, too, and immediately thought "yeah, cool...another thing I like about ISM..."

I was first turned on to Heinlein in the mid-late 60's by some workers in the Great Smokie Mountain town of Gatlinburg, TN, where I'd gone to carouse, commiserate, and gather a few supplies before heading back into the woods. They were using the word 'grok' casually in conversation and I asked about it.

I read Stranger in a Strange Land (and one or two others, though mostly followed Heinlein's career from afar, tickled and amazed at how common his word had become) and have used grok ever since. It is a great word that means more than simply to understand, you bet. There are certain situations that only it will fit.

What a cool thing, to have coined a word and see it so widely used, eh? I once wrote an essay about the early Internet and made up the word 'Erotobahn' and have since seen it used by others in that original group. Hopefully it has spread further.

Somewhere online is a repository of newly coined words, where folks can enter their own or those they've heard.

Also, there is a cool little dictionary titled "Word's That Don't Exist But Ought To" by Jack Hitt that I treasured for years, though my copy is long since gone in the purge of 2001. He polled all sorts of people, professionals mostly, like writers, physicians, scientists, artists, etc, to see what words they'd created to explain more fully a certain concept of thought or feeling. Some really neat words ended up being collected and organized.

My favorite was the word aglyphicate, a very simple word, actually, and something of which I have very rarely ever been accused.

This forum just gets better and better.

Manring

I was wondering if any other people here have read the book; whether they were as deeply affected by it as I was and if they attached any profound meaning to the word  grok?

zille

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

A theme that ran through all his books which I took to heart very much was, in your lifetime you can decide to do many things, and it is moral and ethical if you are also willing to personally be responsible for the choices, and endure whatever consequences without whinging.[QUOTE=voyeur2]
"I am free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do."
R.A. Heinlein
[QUOTE=voyeur2]As a juvenile I liked Tunnel in The Sky.

Oh, I hadn't thought of that one in years!  I love "Have Space Suit, Will Travel"

But one of his smaller books was a really interesting one as well.  Ask whazzizname where the light saber came from (as an aside)  Double Star.

Ohhhhh ... you know, silly me -- never thought of that!  Of course Double Star came out long before Lucas made Star Wars!  (In the me-iverse, Star Wars was a big part of me being a kid -- I used to play it with the boys on the playground when I was in first grade -- they always made me be Leia, since I was the only girl who played with them, and I thought that was grossly unfair -- I wanted to be Han Solo!)

And the other thing that always ran through his books was the passion of the people in them, the strong revelation of unique characters.

Yes, so many characters whose names spring to my mind:  Lazarus Long (of course, and man, would I fuck him in a heart-beat!), Hilda and Jake, Deety and Zeb, Maureen, Empress Star, Jubal, Miriam, Dorcas, and Anne, Friday of course...

Oh, I really love "Job: A Comedy of Justice"  -- One of my favorites!

And, just thinking of it now, I haven't read "I Will Fear No Evil" in way too long -- I must go do that!

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Belgareth

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

[QUOTE=zille]
Lazarus Long (of course, and man, would I fuck him in a heart-beat!)[QUOTE]
Now I know why us old guys have all the luck!

[QUOTE=zille]
Friday of course...[QUOTE]
She affects me the way Lazarus affects you.

[QUOTE=zille]
Oh, I really love "Job: A Comedy of Justice"  -- One of my favorites![QUOTE]
I've just started read Job again. I love it.

If you enjoy Heinlein so much, you should try reading Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Mists of Avalon" and the associated books in the series, if you haven't done so already.
Bradley is the only author to have talen the Arthurian legend and related it from the female perspective. The way she describes the ritual of the Druid's Beltane Fires, their drug-induced sexual intercourse and the various feminine influences is as evocative as some of Heinlein's work.

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voyeur2

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

[QUOTE=zille]
Lazarus Long (of course, and man, would I fuck him in a heart-beat!)

Now I know why us old guys have all the luck!

[QUOTE=zille]
Friday of course...[QUOTE]
She affects me the way Lazarus affects you.

[QUOTE=zille]
Oh, I really love "Job: A Comedy of Justice"  -- One of my favorites![QUOTE]
I've just started read Job again. I love it.

If you enjoy Heinlein so much, you should try reading Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Mists of Avalon" and the associated books in the series, if you haven't done so already.
Bradley is the only author to have talen the Arthurian legend and related it from the female perspective. The way she describes the ritual of the Druid's Beltane Fires, their drug-induced sexual intercourse and the various feminine influences is as evocative as some of Heinlein's work.

For me I think I would like to be either Jubal, or Lazerus Long.  Neither one a really nice guy through and through, there was always a certain ruthlessness about them.  About me too in some departments.

Another thing about Heinline, he invented the word and concept of Waldo (remote manipulators) now used to handle radioactive materials, and in clean rooms.  His science was usually pretty hard (as in vrey possible or probable in the future.)  He gave the newspaperman in Stranger the name Ben Caxton.  The first  ever newspaper publisher was . . .?  You got it.
And I forget the title of the one where Our Hero goes on a quest for a 'witch' after winning the lottery with a forgged ticket on the Irish Sweepstakes.  Ends up with the name Oscar.  There were foldboxes, dragons, giants, mazes and so forth.

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Belgareth

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Another thing about Heinline, he invented the word and concept of Waldo (remote manipulators) now used to handle radioactive materials, and in clean rooms.

The realm of science fiction and fantasy writers is such that they need to express completely new, if fictional, concepts and the only way to achieve it effectively is in the nascence of a word. I can only guess at the thousands of word created for this purpose. There are obvious ones like robot but there are numerous others from the works of Tolkien, Azimov and the Reverend Dodgson, to name but a few, as well as Heinlein.

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trebora

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Okay so there are a few SciFi fans here.  I think for the most part we'd all agree that the greats of the 40s to the 60's were definately that.  Who do you think the greats of today are.

my list includes Gibson, Stephenson,  Brian Herbert...damn T3 is setting in again I cant remeber any other names. 

Belgarath: I'd have agree that Mist of Avalon is definately a good read.  It is actually my fav for Arthurian legend.  Did you see the movie.  I think they did the book justice.  I'm drawing a blank on who but I know there have been a few other books based on Arthurian legend from a female point of view.

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zille

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

If you enjoy Heinlein so much, you should try reading Marion Zimmer Bradley's "Mists of Avalon" and the associated books in the series, if you haven't done so already.
Bradley is the only author to have talen the Arthurian legend and related it from the female perspective. The way she describes the ritual of the Druid's Beltane Fires, their drug-induced sexual intercourse and the various feminine influences is as evocative as some of Heinlein's work.

Oh, trust me, I've read that, too.  I've done a lot of reading, and outside school, it was mostly SF and fantasy.  I've read a great deal of MZB -- Mists of Avalon and the ones that followed (not so good, I felt), the Darkover series, and some other stuff, some of which was pretty bad in a very funny way (there was one about Amazons...)  [grins]

My favorite woman SF author is Lois McMaster Bujold.  I've read just about every word she has penned!  Her Miles Vorkorsigan series just blows me away.  At the end of the first book, I always cry with the "rightness" of the ending.  Other ones have moments that have given me almost painful belly-laughs (Bujold understands a comic moment like no one's business!)

My favorite woman fantasy author is Robin Mckinley.  I lived in "Damar" when I was 12/13 -- didn't ever want to stop reading (I've actually had my copy of The Blue Sword literally fall to pieces from repeated readings!)  Her new vampire novel, Sunshine, rocks my universe.

I could go on for pages.  I'll end this post ... for now!

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zille

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Another thing about Heinline, he invented the word and concept of Waldo (remote manipulators) now used to handle radioactive materials, and in clean rooms.  His science was usually pretty hard (as in vrey possible or probable in the future.)  He gave the newspaperman in Stranger the name Ben Caxton.  The first  ever newspaper publisher was . . .?  You got it.
And I forget the title of the one where Our Hero goes on a quest for a 'witch' after winning the lottery with a forgged ticket on the Irish Sweepstakes.  Ends up with the name Oscar.  There were foldboxes, dragons, giants, mazes and so forth.

He invented the motorized hospital bed too, I believe.  (He spent a lot of time in them, so he knew better than anyone that improvements were in order!)

Heinlein has layers upon layers of puns, hidden truths, and etc. in his books.  Finding a new one is so exciting!

"Glory Road" is the name you are looking for.  His wonderful take on fantasy.  I love that one, too!  (Big suprise, there!)

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Belgareth

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Oh, trust me, I've read that, too.  I've done a lot of reading, and outside school, it was mostly SF and fantasy.  I've read a great deal of MZB -- Mists of Avalon and the ones that followed (not so good, I felt), the Darkover series, and some other stuff, some of which was pretty bad in a very funny way (there was one about Amazons...)  [grins]

My favorite woman SF author is Lois McMaster Bujold.  I've read just about every word she has penned!  Her Miles Vorkorsigan series just blows me away.  At the end of the first book, I always cry with the "rightness" of the ending.  Other ones have moments that have given me almost painful belly-laughs (Bujold understands a comic moment like no one's business!)

My favorite woman fantasy author is Robin Mckinley.  I lived in "Damar" when I was 12/13 -- didn't ever want to stop reading (I've actually had my copy of The Blue Sword literally fall to pieces from repeated readings!)  Her new vampire novel, Sunshine, rocks my universe.

I could go on for pages.  I'll end this post ... for now!

I don't think that MZB entire output belongs in the same category as the great writers, because her work tends to swing from marvelous to mediochre.

I'm ashamed to say that I have never experienced either Bujold or McKinley but your prompting has stirred my curiosity. I'm fortunate enough to have a second-hand book shop which deals solely in SF and it's open on Sunday|

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voyeur2

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

I don't think that MZB entire output belongs in the same category as the great writers, because her work tends to swing from marvelous to mediochre.

I'm ashamed to say that I have never experienced either Bujold or McKinley but your prompting has stirred my curiosity. I'm fortunate enough to have a second-hand book shop which deals solely in SF and it's open on Sunday|

Thanks all you guys for the recollections - particularly Glory Road.  I can now seek out a copy to re read.  Nobody has mentioned William Gibson.  A real thinking person's writer.  Neuromancer invented the words; Cyber, cyberspace, ice, the concepts of the matrix, the conundrums of what form Artificial Intelligence might take, the concept of personality recording, so much more. In a gritty real kind of world near to now.

Anyone got other writers to propose?

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Belgareth

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Thanks all you guys for the recollections - particularly Glory Road.  I can now seek out a copy to re read.  Nobody has mentioned William Gibson.  A real thinking person's writer.  Neuromancer invented the words; Cyber, cyberspace, ice, the concepts of the matrix, the conundrums of what form Artificial Intelligence might take, the concept of personality recording, so much more. In a gritty real kind of world near to now.

Anyone got other writers to propose?

This forum isn't big enough and the grave would beckon before I finshed my list!

In a similar vein but sufficiently different to be worthy of note;

Philip Jose Farmer and his "Riverworld" series, which combines historical characters with the concept of continuous reincarnation and parks them both in a bizzare setting by a multimillion mile river. It gets my vote for it's absurdity and credibility.

Tom Holt's "Expecting Someone Taller". Not in the same class as previously mentioned authors, this novel is plain crazy from beginning to end but the humour he produces, from the idea of giving the Tarnhelm to the pathetic Malcolm Fisher character and throwing him into the hands of the Teutonic Gods, is clever, very witty and showed significant knowledge of Teutonic mythology.

Finally I have to mention John Wyndham for his sheer inventiveness. He created frighteningly thought-provoking entities and placed them in all-too-plausible environments. I first read the Village of the Damned in my very early teens and it had a profound impact on the way I perceived people for a long time afterwards.

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Belgareth

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

This forum isn't big enough and the grave would beckon before I finshed my list!

In a similar vein but sufficiently different to be worthy of note;

Philip Jose Farmer and his "Riverworld" series, which combines historical characters with the concept of continuous reincarnation and parks them both in a bizzare setting by a multimillion mile river. It gets my vote for it's absurdity and credibility.

Tom Holt's "Expecting Someone Taller". Not in the same class as previously mentioned authors, this novel is plain crazy from beginning to end but the humour he produces, from the idea of giving the Tarnhelm to the pathetic Malcolm Fisher character and throwing him into the hands of the Teutonic Gods, is clever, very witty and showed significant knowledge of Teutonic mythology.

Finally I have to mention John Wyndham for his sheer inventiveness. He created frighteningly thought-provoking entities and placed them in all-too-plausible environments. I first read the Village of the Damned in my very early teens and it had a profound impact on the way I perceived people for a long time afterwards.

Correction to my last paragraph - of course I didn't read Village of the Damned I read The Midwich Cuckoos. Just shows how the visual media can influence us [turns pink with embarassment]

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zille

Member

Re: Stranger in a Strange Land

Thanks all you guys for the recollections - particularly Glory Road.  I can now seek out a copy to re read.  Nobody has mentioned William Gibson.  A real thinking person's writer.  Neuromancer invented the words; Cyber, cyberspace, ice, the concepts of the matrix, the conundrums of what form Artificial Intelligence might take, the concept of personality recording, so much more. In a gritty real kind of world near to now.

Anyone got other writers to propose?

I loved reading Gibson in hish school (and I got to read the one partly set in Paris, when I was ctually in Paris, which was a wonderful experience and memory I cherish!)

You are right that he was a real inventer of the terminology and shape of some of our ideas about cyber-stuff (Which is funny as he wrote the books on a type-writer and couldn't even find the on-button to a computer!) but when I went to re-read Neuromancer last year, I found that his visonariness had led to his being "dated" really fast.  Or the tech industry is just growing/changing so fast...

I could also give a ridiculously long list, but will permit myself one recommendation:  Walter Jon Williams, espcecially "Aristoi" (which fans of Gibson will adore!) and "Ten Points for Style," which is one of the funniest SF stories I have ever read.  (As well as having a wonderfully realized world and characters who are so real you remember them as friends after you get done reading.)

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