#1 April 27th, 2005 05:38 PM

cagney

Member

The Thin Line

Is ISM Artistic Pornography or Pornographic Art, or is it the first true example of a new genre, therefore meriting the coining of a new term?  I only ask because I just found an old presentation I once did in Aesthetics class, back in my humdrum days as a Philosophy student on this very subject.  The lecturer gave me some askance looks as I handed out my, ahem, research material to my bemused colleagues, as I recall, but I managed to scrape a pass.  I can think of no better qualified group than the ISMers to pass comment, so be my guest.  (For the record I also worry about whether Angelina's really seeing Brad; when Sage Francis is touring Melbourne again; if there is a therapy group that can help me stop buying novelty watches on ebay; will Vin Diesel like my script or will I have to send it to Seagal; should I split up with my live-in girlfriend (the cat gets more bedspace than I do these days) and whether my best friend will become Pope or not (an Irish bookmaker is about to give odds on him, although Bono is probably a wiser outside bet).  Plenty to chew on there, munch munch.

wantingscott

Member

Re: The Thin Line

i see it as self portraiture. ISM would be 75% less valuable to me without the forum. it's my perspective, maybe based on healthy relationships with women in real life, and never having as a child or adolescent "sexualized" women, but instead seeing them from a whole (body/mind/spirit/breadwinner).

but, on reflection, that view only came about in defense of my mom, who always placed herself at the mercy of my dad. as a man, i have a hatred of most men instead. it's not the most balanced perspective.

-wscott

---

_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

MrPicMe

Member

Re: The Thin Line

Is ISM Artistic Pornography or Pornographic Art, or is it the first true example of a new genre, therefore meriting the coining of a new term?  I only ask because I just found an old presentation I once did in Aesthetics class, back in my humdrum days as a Philosophy student on this very subject.  The lecturer gave me some askance looks as I handed out my, ahem, research material to my bemused colleagues, as I recall, but I managed to scrape a pass.  I can think of no better qualified group than the ISMers to pass comment, so be my guest.  (For the record I also worry about whether Angelina's really seeing Brad; when Sage Francis is touring Melbourne again; if there is a therapy group that can help me stop buying novelty watches on ebay; will Vin Diesel like my script or will I have to send it to Seagal; should I split up with my live-in girlfriend (the cat gets more bedspace than I do these days) and whether my best friend will become Pope or not (an Irish bookmaker is about to give odds on him, although Bono is probably a wiser outside bet).  Plenty to chew on there, munch munch.

My shortest answer would be: Porn=self degradation for money.(I don't mean once a month prize winner for good art)

As far as "degradation", I think everyone here knows the difference they feel if they are "making art" or "degrading" themselfs...

Degradation:
n 1: changing to a lower state (a less respected state) [syn: debasement] 2: a low or downcast state; "each confession brought her into an attitude of abasement"- H.L.Menchken [syn: abasement, abjection]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Art:
n 1: the products of human creativity; works of art collectively; "an art exhibition"; "a fine collection of art" [syn: fine art] 2: the creation of beautiful or significant things; "art does not need to be innovative to be good"; "I was never any good at art"; "he said that architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully" [syn: artistic creation, artistic production] 3: a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation; "the art of conversation"; "it's quite an art" [syn: artistry, prowess] 4: photographs or other visual representations in a printed publication; "the publisher was responsible for all the artwork in the book" [syn: artwork, graphics, nontextual matter]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

To coin a phrase: "Art is in the eye of the beholder"

:-)

Belgareth

Member

Re: The Thin Line

My shortest answer would be: Porn=self degradation for money.(I don't mean once a month prize winner for good art)

As far as "degradation", I think everyone here knows the difference they feel if they are "making art" or "degrading" themselfs...

Degradation:
n 1: changing to a lower state (a less respected state) [syn: debasement] 2: a low or downcast state; "each confession brought her into an attitude of abasement"- H.L.Menchken [syn: abasement, abjection]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

Art:
n 1: the products of human creativity; works of art collectively; "an art exhibition"; "a fine collection of art" [syn: fine art] 2: the creation of beautiful or significant things; "art does not need to be innovative to be good"; "I was never any good at art"; "he said that architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully" [syn: artistic creation, artistic production] 3: a superior skill that you can learn by study and practice and observation; "the art of conversation"; "it's quite an art" [syn: artistry, prowess] 4: photographs or other visual representations in a printed publication; "the publisher was responsible for all the artwork in the book" [syn: artwork, graphics, nontextual matter]

Source: WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

To coin a phrase: "Art is in the eye of the beholder"

:-)

If you consider the root of the word, it has a subtly different meaning from the modern adoption.
Porne [Gr harlot or whore] + Graphien [Gr to write], hence writings or drawings concerning the giving of one's body for the gratification of another. This word was applied particularly to the graphical drawings and descriptions of the cortesan's activities within the Courts of Greece. A cortesan's role was not considered to be  degrading but was considered to be a route to power within the Courts.

So, given this definition, is there actually any difference between "Artistic Pornography" and "Pornographic Art"?

---

[color="Red"]require "help.pl";[/color]

zille

Member

Re: The Thin Line

I have been walking that thin line for most of my adult life, ever since my photo project:  Is this art, or porn" in sophmore year of college.  (It was a series of shots that started with a basic "art nude" and moved through the spectrum to an explicit shot -- the fun was seeing where people drew the line!)

The thing that ISM is doing right-right-right in this matter is having the gals shoot themselves, thereby leaving the whole matter of "exploitation" out of it.  I've seen some beautiful erotic photos by photographers whom I knew were assholes and gave their models a hard time -- and that knowledge kinda ruined the image for me.  But if you know the girl had a fun time making the image, then it is all that much farther from being "porn."

I think some people will always see explicit work as porn, no matter how well it is composed, lit, etc.  And I've learned in my years of making "art-porn" (as I've called it) that some people prefer to "get off" to porny-porn -- that adding that element of art or reality makes them uncomfortable.  (Obviously, those people are not signing up to ISM!)

So it's really only those of us who can see an explicit image and see the lines, cuves, angles, colors, and textures of the image (and not just the genitalia) who even bother to discuss such topics!

---

~See more of me at http://zilledefeu.com

wantingscott

Member

Re: The Thin Line

i agree with Zille. there's NO WAY i'd be a part of this site unless the models were shooting their own folios.

---

_________________________________________________
that's the way it goes. but don't forget, it goes the other way too.

Belgareth

Member

Re: The Thin Line

I have been walking that thin line for most of my adult life, ever since my photo project:  Is this art, or porn" in sophmore year of college.  (It was a series of shots that started with a basic "art nude" and moved through the spectrum to an explicit shot -- the fun was seeing where people drew the line!)

The thing that ISM is doing right-right-right in this matter is having the gals shoot themselves, thereby leaving the whole matter of "exploitation" out of it.  I've seen some beautiful erotic photos by photographers whom I knew were assholes and gave their models a hard time -- and that knowledge kinda ruined the image for me.  But if you know the girl had a fun time making the image, then it is all that much farther from being "porn."

I think some people will always see explicit work as porn, no matter how well it is composed, lit, etc.  And I've learned in my years of making "art-porn" (as I've called it) that some people prefer to "get off" to porny-porn -- that adding that element of art or reality makes them uncomfortable.  (Obviously, those people are not signing up to ISM!)

So it's really only those of us who can see an explicit image and see the lines, cuves, angles, colors, and textures of the image (and not just the genitalia) who even bother to discuss such topics!

I will certainly second your opinion Zille. Despite my previous post, I do not consider ISM to be in any way pornographic. It does, at times, get very explicit but that is the choice of the contributor and there is no pressure being brought to bear by any external influence. In fact, I would not be around if there was ever an indication that the contributors were not exhibiting of their own volition and under their own terms.

---

[color="Red"]require "help.pl";[/color]

nagaloo

Member

Re: The Thin Line

And I've learned in my years of making "art-porn" (as I've called it) that some people prefer to "get off" to porny-porn -- that adding that element of art or reality makes them uncomfortable

I find I don't react like I did in the past to the "porn" my buddies send me, and at least one of them  is a woman LOL. I find the fact there are regular women on ISM who love or are learning to love their naked body very exciting. Makes me think I may meet a few someday who think the same way. God Bless Them! I am still thinking about the porn/art new word part of the question, nothing yet. Unlike some here my experiance hasn't been so exciting yet. So its nice to know that there are many open minded people out there, hopefully more women than men LMAO.
Stew

---

The universe is unfolding as it should, and so are the girls on ISM. I love them all.

cagney

Member

Re: The Thin Line

but, on reflection, that view only came about in defense of my mom, who always placed herself at the mercy of my dad. as a man, i have a hatred of most men instead. it's not the most balanced perspective.

-wscott[/QUOTE]

I don't think I could bring myself quite to say that I have a hatred of other men, but I do often feel disappointed by them.  My father was a pretty good old fella, emotionally distant at worst, although I never really knew much about his life before I came along, apart from the occasional sparkling anecdote which whetted my appetite for more that never came.  Perhaps that's why I've always felt more comfortable around women.  They seem to have less fear of themselves, and I've probably emulated that sense of comfort and openness, thus distancing myself even more from my fellow men.  Occasionally my faith is restored though and I'll make an effort to remain friends, but it doesn't happen as often as I would like.