#76 April 6th, 2013 11:28 PM

artemesia

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

urgh, the top of the sign (in the post I posted before) says arab women- i'm not an idiot, i know islam isn't a race. that's just f*ing common sense..

what i am talking about is the appropriation thing, you know people speaking for groups they ain't a part of. here are some of the responses to the protest from muslim women themselves

the fact that this protest was in france made it a very safe space for them to cause their scene. (and doubtlessly you remember France was the leader in the campaign to ban the hijab in schools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_sc … in_France). so it ain't daring.

the only cool thing about this protest is amina herself. and the fucked up part is that she's now in a mental hospital for it.

sometimes a nude protest really isn't the way to go. it would've be more daring for femen to appear with clothes, and show some silent respect for their sisters around the world who don't enjoy the same liberties as we do.

ps i know, i have to work on my tone and learn to be gentle, but i'm being punished for it in the feminist world so don't worry...

Last edited by artemesia (April 6th, 2013 11:37 PM)

blissed

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

I don't see Arabia as a race either, I see a diverse culture. I think they were just showing solidarity with the Arab women who agree with them and calling to the others and particularly to everyone who may be afraid and silent. The social atmosphere they're commenting on isn't just confined to Islam but to Hindu areas too and anywhere where family honour is paramount and "honour killings" and the fear they create are an accepted means of social discipline, and hardly ever prosecuted.

France is safer than these regions but it's not a safe place to protest without risk. There are islamist groups who intimidate and not far away Van Gogh the a Dutch film maker was killed by a Muslim extremist.

1.5 billion  people's voices including Femen can be heard online, but 5.5 billion can't be heard. I think 7 billion people, literate and  online will change things enormously. No one will need to speak for anyone else  and people will be able to articulate their fear and everyone will share their view to distill a sense of what is reasonable. In a way Femens protests are a little old fashioned, courting old media attention.

It's not how I would approach the problem but Let Femen do their thing and let the woman in your pic do hers, but she's in no danger, as she would be if she expressed support for Femen's protest. I'm in awe of the bravery of Amina. I would think in a family based culture her parents took her to a mental hospital to regain the respect of their community. I think they acted from fear too. 

Personally I think showing solidarity to people living in silent fear is a good thing. And giving to projects like Malala's education fund is a good way to target our good intensions to the best effect, so that women in these societies can have real power and self determination http://news.sky.com/story/1074356/angel … ation-fund

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Last edited by blissed (April 7th, 2013 09:22 AM)

paranoid24

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

what i am talking about is the appropriation thing, you know people speaking for groups they ain't a part of. here are some of the responses to the protest from muslim women themselves

(pic)

the fact that this protest was in france made it a very safe space for them to cause their scene. (and doubtlessly you remember France was the leader in the campaign to ban the hijab in schools http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_sc … in_France). so it ain't daring.

the only cool thing about this protest is amina herself. and the fucked up part is that she's now in a mental hospital for it.

I doubt Amina is a Muslim woman. Perhaps it's a little hot in Tunisia at the moment. I tend to avoid meddling with affairs I am not concerned with personally, but "it's not your business" sounds like a warning from the Mafia. Saudi Arabia is competing with France for ideological grounds in Northern Africa. They don't favor freedom of speech.

sometimes a nude protest really isn't the way to go. it would've be more daring for femen to appear with clothes, and show some silent respect for their sisters around the world who don't enjoy the same liberties as we do.

I guess it's because nudity causes arousal. I never see nude women in the street so I can't tell. I guess I'd be aroused and disappointed. Women are not generous.

Last edited by paranoid24 (April 13th, 2013 06:18 PM)

artemesia

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

I doubt Amina is a Muslim woman. Perhaps it's a little hot in Tunisia at the moment. I tend to avoid meddling with affairs I am not concerned with personally, but "it's not your business" sounds like a warning from the Mafia. Saudi Arabia is competing with France for ideological grounds in Northern Africa. They don't favor freedom of speech.

I guess it's because nudity causes arousal. I never see nude women in the street so I can't tell. I guess I'd be aroused and disappointed. Women are not generous.

Whaaaaaaattttt????

Paranoid, english second language aside, whaaaaat are you saying? Women don't owe you anything, if they appear naked in the streets, let it be a warning to you fella, because those bitches will be fierce and would bite your f**in head off. Why the fuck should they be generous? Why the fuck should they fuck you cause they are naked? What the fucking fuck?

Ha, I know I'm speaking from the anarchist bubble here, nudity is such a no big deal around my community (went to an awesome alternative fashion show the other day, lots of my friends were on the catwalk naked, or in some various form of genitalia revealing spectacle, amazing!).

Amina is probably not a muslim women, but she was condemned to death by a Muslim cleric, in a part of the world where church and state aren't separated, hence making it an anarchist concern. Dude this stuff is our business, we gotta show support for our sisters overseas, what else is there left that we can do? Maybe it's time to start attacking the misogynist religions (?) but in a way that actually listens to the women in the churches....

viva

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

thanks artemesia!

Paranoid, I also feel the need to address your statement. In a similar way. I have even written my post to you in french as well to make sure my words sink in. English first.

Paranoid, I'm sorry you are so sexually frustrated.

But you need to think about what you say when you post here.

A woman's nudity, as a concept, seems to be offensive and unfair to you. You feel entitlement and frustration. Perhaps you feel impotent, like nothing you can do will get yourself the sexual fulfillment you crave. Perhaps you blame women.

All of this sucks and I'm sorry you're dealing with that.

But you need to separate your feelings from your judgements about women, and especially, from what you say here.

A woman's body is her own. It does not cause arousal in and of itself. It is just a body. It itches and gets sunburned, it gets old, its back hurts, it feels good. It's a body - it's her body. A woman's body has nothing to do with you. On a hot day, if you take away all the fear and cultural disapproval, a woman might feel more comfortable taking off her shirt, just like a man.

But she cannot.

Why?

It's attitudes like yours that make her afraid, that take her normal body and turn it into a liability, a bunch of baggage, a tempting fruit that she is cruel to reveal. People like you that make her feel that if she shows her skin, and then doesn't fuck every man who walks by leering, she's being "not generous". She's a bitch, because she has a body. She's damned if she does and damned if she doesn't.

Her body is not any of your business. Her generosity has nothing to do with the way she dresses or if she decides to have sex with someone.

Her body has nothing to do with you, and a woman in the street owes you nothing. She can't be generous or not generous, because the way she's dressed or undressed has nothing to do with you. And she owes you nothing.

and now in French.

Paranoid, je suis désolé si vous êtes sexuellement frustré.

Mais vous devez penser à ce que vous dites lorsque vous laissez un post ici.

La nudité de la femme, en tant que concept, semble vous offenser et attiser votre sentiment d’injustice. Vous pensez avoir un droit sur le corps de la femme et cela génère de la frustration chez vous. Peut-être que vous vous sentez impuissant, alors que rien de vous pouvez faire ne vous donnera la satisfaction sexuelle dont vous rêvez. Peut-être que vous en blâmez les femmes.

Ca doit être dur pour vous et je regrette que vous deviez faire face à ça.

Mais vous devez séparer vos sentiments de votre jugement sur les femmes, et surtout, de ce que vous dites ici.

Le corps d'une femme est son bien propre. Il ne provoque pas l'excitation en soi. C’est juste un corps. Il peut démanger, prendre des coups de soleil, être vieux, avoir mal au dos, ou se sentir bien... C'est juste un corps mais c'est son corps. Le corps d'une femme n'a rien à voir avec vous. Par une chaude journée, si vous enlevez toute la peur et la désapprobation culturelle, une femme peut se sentir plus à l'aise sans sa chemise, comme un homme.

Mais ce n’est pas possible pour elle.

Pourquoi?

C'est des attitudes comme la vôtre qui lui font peur, la dépossèdent de son corps et le transforment en une responsabilité, un fardeau, un fruit tentant qu'il est cruel de révéler ; des gens comme vous qui lui font sentir que si elle se découvre, mais ne saute pas pour autant sur tout homme qui se promène dans les environs avec des regards concupiscents, c’est une allumeuse. C'est une salope si elle montre son corps, et une frigide si elle le cache. Elle est perdante dans tous les cas parce qu’elle a un corps.

Ce qu’une femme fait de son corps n’est pas vos affaires. Sa générosité n'a rien à voir avec la façon dont elle s'habille ou sa décision d'avoir des relations sexuelles avec quelqu'un.

Son corps n'a rien à voir avec vous. Une femme dans la rue, ne vous doit rien. Sa démarche ou son style vestimentaire n’ont aucun lien avec vous ou avec aucun autre passant. Ils n’appartiennent qu’à elle. Penser qu’une femme vous doit quelque chose si son corps, de quelque façon qu’il soit montre, vous excite est mal.

paranoid24

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

I think it itches you that nudity embarrasses a man when it's not about sex. The thought of a nude protest doesn't make me comfortable, but I may be wrong and the Femen may be nice people as you. It's a difficult subject so I'm getting a little weary and will relax.

Last edited by paranoid24 (April 16th, 2013 06:33 AM)

viva

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

Nudity doesn't embarrass men when it's not about sex. Nudity embarrasses you when it's not about sex. Try not to make overarching statements about half the population until you've asked each and every man in the world, if non-sexual nudity embarrasses him.

It's good that you recognize this about yourself, and it might be good to ask yourself why something so normal as nudity embarrasses you. It is a difficult subject - it is always hard to challenge ourselves, but it's good too! This is how we grow.

Incidentally, doing the iShotmyself project is a challenge for many of our contributors on the same level. Accepting their own nudity as normal, natural and non-shameful is a hard thing, a taboo engrained into most of us from when we are small. ISM is here to encourage girls and women to break those taboos and to love themselves without fear.

Isn't that cool?

blissed

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

Paranoid, enrol a life drawing class. You'll be confronted with nudity, and after 10 mins of drawing it you won't be embarrassed.

.

Last edited by blissed (April 16th, 2013 10:24 AM)

paranoid24

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

You write very good French Viva. You must be quite literate because I'm comfortable with English but only after years spent reading on the Internet, where English is widespread. I read many books in English but it's not really necessary to catch up with fluent English. I just do not often think of using verbs like "catch up". I'm starting to watch American movies without the subtitiles, where you hear more of that.

Have you seen that video? Perhaps I should do that to get really comfortable with nudity.

http://www.ishotmyself.com/public/view_ … g=WaxStrip

It looks like a vet but the girl is pretty and cheerful.

Your plans for anarchist nudism would remove all the fun to be a voyeur. Do you think we would see the emergence of "tribes" of girls with different styles of pussy fashions, like geeks, punks, yuppies and what else?

viva

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

Your plans for anarchist nudism would remove all the fun to be a voyeur. Do you think we would see the emergence of "tribes" of girls with different styles of pussy fashions, like geeks, punks, yuppies and what else?

blissed

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

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artemesia

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

Hi paranoid, your question goes off topic on the subject of pubic hair, but I will answer that in this sub-culture of anarchic sex loving appreciating hippies and punks; some dye their pubes but most don't. I shave when the moon is waning cause I like to be neat. Fashions for pubic hair could happen (people have tried) but it's never taken off. You should look up the vajazzling video also.

And for the cause of anarchism; i don't really care if I take away the fun of someone being a voyeur. Being a voyeur inscribes some sort of class difference and I think if you were creative enough, you would still find a way to get your kicks even if nudity became more common place.

paranoid24

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

Hi Artemesia. You're right I shouldn't meddle my sex into this thread. I understand Femen is concerned with visibility and it also has something to do with sex. It's difficult to escape their sexual image, even with clothes on.

artemesia

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

That was the conclusion I came to paranoid.

They are confusing.

They get people thinking about sex instead of the issue.

But some people in my scene have started emailing them about their stance on sex workers and such, so we'll see if they start changing their tune.

Oh, I also had another thought about being a voyeur. If nudity was more commonplace, and the shame about our bodies was much less- imagine the things that people would become voyeuristic about! I imagine it would be a world were people are curious about things like, how you have your coffee, your thoughts on our place in the universe, what book would you like to write one day etc. I think I'd like that world, a lot!

blissed

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

Faces are naked and when we see one we think is hot it turns our head and we look (as long as they're not looking at us ) I think that would still go on, especially with nice bums as when your admiring a nice bum the person can't see you

Also you'd hear people say "When you talk to me I'd prefer you to look at my eyes, not my erect penis"

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Last edited by blissed (April 28th, 2013 08:49 AM)

artemesia

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

lol

artemesia

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

if you can see this it means it hasn't been banned from facebook... yet

no i'm not in it, but I would be if i could...

blissed

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

I don't blame you, that's really nice! I like all the different skin tones.

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blissed

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

And the nice bums too

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artemesia

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

Sextermination for Nazism....

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set … 015&type=1

they're getting on the right track, maybe? If the sex attacks continue, I may have to move to Europe and join 'em

artemesia

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

@blissed, you live in England right? Ever seen this?

Night of the Senses- A sex charity party in London, funds goes to the Outsiders, for disabled people to enjoy sex -- http://juicyproductions.co.uk/erotic-awards/

looks hot... and it's on the 17th of May? Making it some day of the week this week.. Ha, all the days roll into one for me now

also last edit of the day, i love their code of conduct policy, and I wish they would hold events all round the world...

http://juicyproductions.co.uk/nightofth … ofconduct/

Last edited by artemesia (May 13th, 2013 12:54 PM)

blissed

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

No I've never seen it, but I think the grand hall in their site photo is the grand hall at one great george street westminster. I'm 100 miles from their, but it looks quite good.

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artemesia

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

Not nudity, but I love what's going on in turkey... Their social media is being controlled, a game show host uses a whole episodes worth of answers to criticise the regime and it's media blackout. People are moving money out the banks that control the media, people are helping each other change things...

We just sent home a dear friend, so I'm wishing him luck in the fray when he lands again...

I learned so many of this things about the cultural politics of turkey from him. Compulsory army service is aveoidable if you're gay (they are that homophobic) but it has to be proved with explicit photographs of gay sex and a physical examine that's so humiliating! What's worse however is pacifism, you are guaranteed to be beaten and hounded for not fighting wars that are not yours.

What's one to do when the state forces you to rebel?

Good luck e.

xx

Last edited by artemesia (June 7th, 2013 01:30 AM)

artemesia

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

Does anyone have any idea of what's going on in Turkey? People are being disappeared yo!

blissed

Member

Re: anarchism and nudity...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22995036

The protests started with people occupying a park that was going to be built on. If a main park in Melbourne was to be built on wouldn't that indicate that public civil life had  degenerated?

I think this is what happens when people get online and switch from an old media diet more suited to 1970s Britain and enter the 21st century online. For me and many other people, online is my mainstream media. Why look at 1 TV news report when you can read about something on a reddit and then go search it.

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