#1 January 11th, 2005 01:37 PM

liz

Member

same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

Ok, I just have to throw this in here, to avoid a debate in a folio's comments section -

a recent folio received the comment, "Nice lookin babe. I wonder if they know that some men are getting tired of the same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look. It's cool, but what they are born with is so much more beautiful to look at. I always wonder how they will feel about the ink and the holes a few uears down the line... I wear ink. It was kindofa brainless thing to do..."

I commented on the same folio with, "Beautiful location to share your beauty in. My fave is #105 - love the showcase of all of you! (that hood is fantastic on you!) I also really like #'s 64 & 70, for the sweetness & sense of fun. In respone to {earlier commentor}, from another pierced and tattooed lady, I wonder if men know that it's not about them..."

to which the original commentor said, "My appology for the short debate, but to "liz: For those without issues with regard to gender, men are also people..." I'm done."

Ok - I don't quite get this, but I felt the need to respond and didn't want to use the folio's comments section as a forum, when, well, there is one!

Again, I think I'm being misunderstood.  I don't know what that is about, "issues with regard to gender" but I never intended my comment to imply that men are not people, and I don't quite get how it was taken that way.

My point was, in response to "I wonder if they know that some men are getting tired of the same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look" that, although some women may modify themselves (whether it be with makeup or with something permanent) to please or entice men, most women are doing it for themselves.  I wasn't saying that men aren't people, just that, as I said, "It's not about them."  "It" referring to a woman's decision to modify or not modify, as in, "I'm not doing it for you."  To me, the original comment implied that we women need to get with it and pay attention to what it is that men want or don't want, and act accordingly.

Can someone please reassure me that they understand what I'm saying here?  This was not supposed to spark some big ol' gender debate or something -

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"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
            -Emma Goldman

duncan_b

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

Ok, I just have to throw this in here, to avoid a debate in a folio's comments section -

a recent folio received the comment, "Nice lookin babe. I wonder if they know that some men are getting tired of the same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look. It's cool, but what they are born with is so much more beautiful to look at. I always wonder how they will feel about the ink and the holes a few uears down the line... I wear ink. It was kindofa brainless thing to do..."

I commented on the same folio with, "Beautiful location to share your beauty in. My fave is #105 - love the showcase of all of you! (that hood is fantastic on you!) I also really like #'s 64 & 70, for the sweetness & sense of fun. In respone to {earlier commentor}, from another pierced and tattooed lady, I wonder if men know that it's not about them..."

to which the original commentor said, "My appology for the short debate, but to "liz: For those without issues with regard to gender, men are also people..." I'm done."

Ok - I don't quite get this, but I felt the need to respond and didn't want to use the folio's comments section as a forum, when, well, there is one!

Again, I think I'm being misunderstood.  I don't know what that is about, "issues with regard to gender" but I never intended my comment to imply that men are not people, and I don't quite get how it was taken that way.

My point was, in response to "I wonder if they know that some men are getting tired of the same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look" that, although some women may modify themselves (whether it be with makeup or with something permanent) to please or entice men, most women are doing it for themselves.  I wasn't saying that men aren't people, just that, as I said, "It's not about them."  "It" referring to a woman's decision to modify or not modify, as in, "I'm not doing it for you."  To me, the original comment implied that we women need to get with it and pay attention to what it is that men want or don't want, and act accordingly.

Can someone please reassure me that they understand what I'm saying here?  This was not supposed to spark some big ol' gender debate or something -

Liz, your original comment was fine... Women get pierced for their own reasons, not necessarily to please (or displease) men.
    Ok, but my own personal reaction is that I don't find the piercings attractive at all (other than traditional earlobe piercings for earrings, and it's the rings themselves which are attractive). So I'd be pleased to have someone who is into piercings given an idea of their value, in any terms.
    Of course it's a square question.

lucille

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

it bothers me that the comments get used as a forum and the model who is presenting themselves sorta get pushed to the side.

i suppose the best way to avoid this is to post a comment directly in relation to the folio and if someone else says something you disagree with then leave it up to the model to respond if they choose to do so. 

of course its up to the individual whether or not they want to be pierced, inked or whatever!  but that goes without saying.  i rekon peeps post Inflammatory comments cause they want a reaction and attention!  just leave em to it. ....

theda

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

What an old fashioned sentiment that man expresesd!

duncan_b

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

What an old fashioned sentiment that man expresesd!

It's just a question: By displaying piercings, an individual makes a statement. The question is, what is that statement?

theda

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

It's just a question: By displaying piercings, an individual makes a statement. The question is, what is that statement?

why does it have to be a statement?
they like the look isn't that enough? people always assume that people who look "alternative" are doing it merely to make a statement.

voyeur2

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

Ok, I just have to throw this in here, to avoid a debate in a folio's comments section -

a recent folio received the comment, "Nice lookin babe. I wonder if they know that some men are getting tired of the same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look. It's cool, but what they are born with is so much more beautiful to look at. I always wonder how they will feel about the ink and the holes a few uears down the line... I wear ink. It was kindofa brainless thing to do..."

I commented on the same folio with, "Beautiful location to share your beauty in. My fave is #105 - love the showcase of all of you! (that hood is fantastic on you!) I also really like #'s 64 & 70, for the sweetness & sense of fun. In respone to {earlier commentor}, from another pierced and tattooed lady, I wonder if men know that it's not about them..."

to which the original commentor said, "My appology for the short debate, but to "liz: For those without issues with regard to gender, men are also people..." I'm done."

Ok - I don't quite get this, but I felt the need to respond and didn't want to use the folio's comments section as a forum, when, well, there is one!

Again, I think I'm being misunderstood.  I don't know what that is about, "issues with regard to gender" but I never intended my comment to imply that men are not people, and I don't quite get how it was taken that way.

My point was, in response to "I wonder if they know that some men are getting tired of the same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look" wasn't saying that men aren't people, just that, as I said, "It's not about them."

"It" referring to a woman's decision to modify or not modify, as in, "I'm not doing it for you." 

Can someone please reassure me that they understand what I'm saying here?  This was not supposed to spark some big ol' gender debate or something -

I understand completely.  I try to respond to piercings as aesthetic statements, or sometimes libidenous enhancements, maybe even bdsm lifestyle stuff.  Whatever.  It really is personal choice expressed and I do not think they have me in mind.  I am grateful for the opportunity to see the choices.
Being "old" does not make one old fashioned, and there is nothing wrong with being old fashioned, the thing is to remain open minded, able to change.

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Have I ever lied to you before?

gtrvox

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

although some women may modify themselves (whether it be with makeup or with something permanent) to please or entice men, most women are doing it for themselves.

When it comes to looks no one ever does anything for himself/herself. We do it because "we like it" and "we like it" because of self-image enhancement and fashion. Both of which are just reflections of others' reactions. That's the whole point: we want to BE SEEN to have pierceings, or tats, or be wearing a nice suit and a hip tie, or an up-to-the-minute haircut. Whatever it is, doing it "because we like it" means that we hope that others will a) either like it too [self-image enhancment] b) approve of our look [fashion] or hate it [rebeliousness]. In all three cases the motivation - in the final analysis - is external, even though not percieved as such by the individual. Every single teenager I have ever known (including myself) always does things "because they like it". But the question to be asked is "why do they/we like it"

People eventually outgrow whatever fashion they thought was hip at the time they indulged their whims: be it piercings, tats, breast enhancements or haircuts. Dermatologists are doing roaring business removing tattoos. It is difficult to see when you're twenty (and you're labeled old fashioned for voicing a dissenting opinion) but it's ALL just fashion. All of it -right down to the hideous self-abasement people undergo on such reality show "gems" as "The Swan". And they all claim they do it because they "like it" and it "makes them feel better"....

And there's nothing wrong with it! It's just the way the world has always operated. I prefer a body unadorned with metal and ink fashion statements but that's the great thing about democracy: we're all free to choose our own statements and then live with them. Just let's not claim that we do it "because we like it" as if the reactions of others, the very co-existence with others - had nothing to do with it

voyeur2

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

I have to say gtrvox has the issue mostly nailed. 
Be it a man, woman, friends, rivals, strangers, parents, the world - the target of our fashion expression and art is external.  We do it to impress, entice, shame, horrify, copy, and lead, others - for rewards that are our own, reasons that are our own.  To imply a specific target or reason is driving another's expression is as often as not likely to result in error, and is not  good manners.

---

Have I ever lied to you before?

theda

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

Being "old" does not make one old fashioned, and there is nothing wrong with being old fashioned, the thing is to remain open minded, able to change.

no no, there's nothing wrong with being old. some of the most progressive people i know are nearly 60 (not that that's incredibly old either). age doesn't have anything to do with it, i meant more that it was an old fashioned sentiment, ie the fear of difference people had in the 50s (McCarthyism anyone?), or that whole stereotype of the "punk ass kid" who gets piercings and dyes their hair green to piss their parents off in 80s sitcoms and stuff.

duncan_b

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

no no, there's nothing wrong with being old. some of the most progressive people i know are nearly 60 (not that that's incredibly old either). age doesn't have anything to do with it, i meant more that it was an old fashioned sentiment, ie the fear of difference people had in the 50s (McCarthyism anyone?), or that whole stereotype of the "punk ass kid" who gets piercings and dyes their hair green to piss their parents off in 80s sitcoms and stuff.

It's easy to read into a question more than is actually there. For instance, this notion of fear - not part of the question at all. The question is to elucidate what it is about piercings, let's say at the eyebrow or lip, that put them in the category of adornment. Lipstick, for instance, accentuates the lips. Combing hair puts a certain shape into what would be randomly tousled if left untouched. Mascara does the same for eyes as lipstick for the lips. One piercing at the navel draws more attention than might ordinarily be paid to the spot.
     But what about a tongue piercing? Or a piercing of the labiae majorae, or near the clitoris? It is not fear, but simple curiosity, which motivates the questions.

theda

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

It's easy to read into a question more than is actually there. For instance, this notion of fear - not part of the question at all. The question is to elucidate what it is about piercings, let's say at the eyebrow or lip, that put them in the category of adornment. Lipstick, for instance, accentuates the lips. Combing hair puts a certain shape into what would be randomly tousled if left untouched. Mascara does the same for eyes as lipstick for the lips. One piercing at the navel draws more attention than might ordinarily be paid to the spot.
     But what about a tongue piercing? Or a piercing of the labiae majorae, or near the clitoris? It is not fear, but simple curiosity, which motivates the questions.

But what is at the heart of disapproval of people who look and act different? of course it's fear! fear of the unknown, fear of difference. We’re conditioned to conform and when people step outside that conditioned role it makes people uncomfortable. We’re conditioned to see piercings, or say people over size 12 as unattractive. and of course these are all just minor things in the extensive web that is control over other human beings. keep us conforming and we're kept in line so the divide between the have's and have not's is still in check. I'm going off on a tangent here but basically everything boils down to patriarchy and capitalism. if your socialist (which i'm not) capitalism is the root of everything, but if your a feminist (which i am) patriarchy is. Let's not forget white privilege as well. Basically our society is built on each group oppressing another group. And conformity is a big part of keeping that oppression in check.

I hope you know what I mean, I'm not good at explaining myself before I've had coffee.

gtrvox

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

Basically our society is built on each group oppressing another group. And conformity is a big part of keeping that oppression in check

So, if I don't feel oppressed, does that mean I am oppressing someone? Or I am really being oppressed but don't realize it?

duncan_b

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

But what is at the heart of disapproval of people who look and act different? of course it's fear! fear of the unknown, fear of difference. We’re conditioned to conform and when people step outside that conditioned role it makes people uncomfortable. We’re conditioned to see piercings, or say people over size 12 as unattractive. and of course these are all just minor things in the extensive web that is control over other human beings. keep us conforming and we're kept in line so the divide between the have's and have not's is still in check. I'm going off on a tangent here but basically everything boils down to patriarchy and capitalism. if your socialist (which i'm not) capitalism is the root of everything, but if your a feminist (which i am) patriarchy is. Let's not forget white privilege as well. Basically our society is built on each group oppressing another group. And conformity is a big part of keeping that oppression in check.

I hope you know what I mean, I'm not good at explaining myself before I've had coffee.

Dear Theda,
This has nothing to do with disapproval. Not in the least.
    Being curious about the aesthetic basis of something does not imply disapproval. Have you seen the full-face, very black, tatoos worn by some Polynesians - some Maori men have them, I think. How would they play in London?
    But even that kind of a reaction is not what's meant here. Put it this way: Suppose you had to explain to a Martian what role the various body adornments and cosmetics played in our social fabric. Think of lipstick, plucked eyebrows, mascara, pierced ears with earrings. What would we say about them to a complete stranger to our society?
    It is on that simple level of explanation that the question is meant.
    I look at piercings rather neutrally, without suggesting that they should or should not be worn. At the same time I'd like to pose a simple question to people who like to wear them, what do you think they contribute to your looks or style?

theda

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

the person is question said in regards to her piercings "what a brainless thing to do". if that's not being condecending and disaproving I don't know what is!

Belgareth

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

the person is question said in regards to her piercings "what a brainless thing to do". if that's not being condecending and disaproving I don't know what is!

I can't see any other interpretation on "what a brainless thing to do" either! If a viewer doesn't like body adornment OK, that's fine but to be derogatory about those adornments is definitely not fine.
I can't see anyone attaching ornamentation to their bodies for the benefit of others; they do it for themselves because they like it.
I wouldn't condemn anyone for shaving their head or growing a beard because that is something they wish to do.
To tie this thread up with another one, I shave both beard and pubes because I want to and not for the benefit of anyone else. Piercings are no different and should be viewed in the same way.

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chrisb469

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

Ok, I just have to throw this in here, to avoid a debate in a folio's comments section -

I hate tatoos too, I think they're horrible and dont know how it's gotten as popular as it has.  I esspecially hate those horrible thorn or wing patters that so many girls have stretched right across their lower back these days....I always refer to it as a stripper tattoo...it makes women look cheap and I dont get how anyone would do that to themselves

theda

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

I hate tatoos too, I think they're horrible and dont know how it's gotten as popular as it has.  I esspecially hate those horrible thorn or wing patters that so many girls have stretched right across their lower back these days....I always refer to it as a stripper tattoo...it makes women look cheap and I dont get how anyone would do that to themselves

tattoos do different things for different people. but it's all a matter of perception and what you like I guess. A friend of mine has the most beautiful tattoo...it's a gorgeous japanese tatt of a geisha and carp. the colours are amazing, and the artist who did it has won awards. it's a gorgeous tattoo. i don't have tattoos yet but i'm saving some money to go to this same artist. i'm going to get a particular red haired 1940s pin up girl tattooed on me. it's a fantastic image and i think i could be happy to have it ingrained on me forever!

Gimme_Danger

Member

Re: same ol piercings. The same tatooed street look

i'm going to get a particular red haired 1940s pin up girl tattooed on me. it's a fantastic image and i think i could be happy to have it ingrained on me forever!

rita? harpo marx?