#1 July 26th, 2003 06:23 PM

lipsticgrrl

Member

I'm shooting myself!

Hi everyone,

I've just joined project ISM and am interested in doing a shoot myself. I like the idea suggested in the "Welcome to Project_ISM" thread about using a mirror, though I am still trying to decide on an artistic context for the shoot.

any ideas?

Zeitgeist

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

well, the whole point of this project is for you to shoot yourself, how you see yourself, i guess. So without actually knowing you, it's kinda difficult to make suggestions...

So, let's go with your nick, lipsticgrrl. You could go the gothy-punky-junky-trashy-courtney-love look. You know, heavy smudgy makeup; lotsa smudgy eyeliner & lotsa smeared blood-red lipstick.

Or, perhaps the Holly Wood Starlet, Marilyn Monroe-like... the whole beauty-spot & red pouty lips thing... you could grey-scale, film-grain & high-contrast a couple of shots, make them all silver-screeny.

Or... space-girl! Do a Barbarella set with toy laser guns n stuff, heavy lippy works with that too!

Or... the Cabaret set, all dark and moody... feather boa's, dark lipstick et al.

Or... I could just be rambling (and/or fantasizing). Either way, good luck & most of all, have fun!

joplinwu

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

you should check out Cindy Sherman's photo books..How you see yourself is not only by devices(ie. mirrors) but the entire concept of your representation.
I join this site to discover other photographers' unique vision. But so far I have only seen many boring prono style self discovery....
Hello 21st centry women artists.

Also annoying comments from some dirty old men...lame. They should go to prono sites.

Good luck, lipstick.

JW.

Head

Administrator

Re: I'm shooting myself!

I join this site to discover other photographers' unique vision. But so far I have only seen many boring prono style self discovery....
Hello 21st centry women artists.

Also annoying comments from some dirty old men...lame. They should go to prono sites.

JW.

Joplin, there are some excellent shoots coming up, but also plenty of the other.  We generally post the most artistic shots to the public gallery so if you aren't interested in the more explicit work perhaps you should stay a 'freeloader'.  You didn't say how you found the site, but if you feel it isn't up to the expectations we create on the public side, please contact me and I would be pleased ot offer you a refund.

I agree with you on the comments, though how you know the age of the men I don't know!  Perhaps you could post some of your own and help lift the standard.  In fact I encourage everybody to do that.

lipsticgrrl

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

Hey Jw,

I'm assuming that you are a photographer yourself?

I'm an arts student, not a photographer, who would like to shoot herself. I had a look at some of Cindy Sherman's work, but at a glance I really cannot appreciate her as much as I could if I spent some time looking at it. All I can say so far is that realistically, you won't find shots like hers on this site because the model must have one hand on the camera and must be fully nude somewhere within the shoot.

I am sure that you WILL find some other photographers on this site.

For me, doing a shoot here is self-concious exibitionism. I am in control of the process, even though I hand over my shoot to this site.

Boring, porno style self-discovery? Have thoroughly looked through all of the shoots? I don't blame most of the models for their sexual association with the task. In a society where we hide our skin under contrived fashions, the revelation of the naked secret is elevated to something forbidden, and associated with sex and sexual desire.

Hello 21st Century women artists? Sorry you were so dissapointed. I'd be sexist if I said that I don't blame them for objectifying themselves and exploiting their obvious power over the men who drool their desire onto the comments boards and into the discussion forums. These self-photographers are women from all over the world who see the site and respond to advertisements. This isn't an artist elite web site. I'm sure you've realised that by now. Most of the girls won't be trained photographers and there are only so many angles someone can take of their body while holding the camera themselves.

As far as contextualising the vision of the self. Have a think about how you see your "self" and try to put it into a hundred shots on a film, of your naked body, holding the camera yourself. There are some very clever girls on this site who I don't think you are giving enough credit.

And consider the social context they come from. Some of them are going to be glamour queens. I don't doubt that others have done it for sheer vanity. But if you want to embrace the artists perspective, look at the way the pop queens are tarting themselves uptown, and I think you'll see why some of the models do their shoots the way they do.

lipstick

Head

Administrator

Re: I'm shooting myself!

Phew.  You go girl.

NOW WHERE'S YOUR SHOOT?

joplinwu

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

Hey Lipstick,

Thank you for your thoughts and your view.

Cindy Sherman might not be a good practical example for ISM project, but she has demonstrated the intelligence and social ideas through her photos. A much personal approach from a terrific photographer Marianne Muller actually can be much better inspiration for all the aspiring artists. (her book is called A Part Of My Life, published by Scalo, ISBN 3-931141-29-2). Very sensitive photos that explore the time, the mood, the transition from private to public, and her view of simple beauty.

We are all photographers. The most fantastic elements of art is the equality. You do not have to have a expensive camera to express your POV. And the most advance camera is not going to help a person who has no creative energy. Do you agree???
Your project is not about the tool and how many angles you can get. Your POV is translated through your thoughts and instinct.
What make your photos stand out are the positive sense that rise above the everyday cliche, and a moment of authenticity. The most honest and pure!!!

You are right about some artists have shown more than just promising  talent. They deserve more then the  comments like        " Wow, what a pretty girl ", " your figure and face are beautiful!  thanks for the art... YUM " , "you're drop dead yummy "....... But lots of immature self representations have invited this kind of male gaze and cheapen other artists works.

I do not mind sexully explcit photos as long as they are saying something. Sex is always the most fantastic subject matter, but it could be the most difficult one. I saw people's borden through their photos, the borden of sex, the borden of life, the borden of their virginas!!! Today's gallery featured angelXXX's poison. What did you see through all the photos? A fantasy like the leathal device??Sorry, I saw the artist spent probably no more than an hour to wip  out plenty of cheap shots. Oh, by the way, I will photograph my virgina just because that's cool. I will exhibit myself because some fast cash and the right to brag about it later on. Isn't it, isn't it?????

The creator of this project knows plenty of all this. I know I am not their ideal supporter. I feel strongly that this site wants to keep this trend going in order to attract more ppl who just want to see young girls' boobs & snatch. By using the mask as an ART project made them feel legit. The fakers probably just laughing at our conversations while counting the pretty greens.........
hahah, how ironic.

Keep your faith in ART, cause you are not the only one

JW.

Zeitgeist

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

Cindy Sherman might not be a good practical example for ISM project, but she has demonstrated the intelligence and social ideas through her photos.

IMHO, Cindy Sherman is way outside the boundaries of what the ISM project is all about. Cindy has a rather candid approach to self-photography, with her later works being somewhat more abstract. Also, I’ve not seen her works involve nudity, but then, Cindy Sherman is not a photographer I've (intentionally) invested much time in, so I could be wrong.

Much of the same can be said about Marianne Müller. There's certainly a theme of private/public sensuality in her first book, however her later works are a still-life approach towards the beauty of the natural & unnatural world around us, with none of her former self-photography. (see Columbarium: The Birdman of Brooklyn.)

The ISM Project to me, lends itself significantly more towards the photography of Spencer Tunick, who’s works prelude the ISM concept. ISM is public nudity after all, or exhibitionism if you will. This time however, the apparatus & ultimate control, lays firmly in the hands of the subject.

We are all photographers. The most fantastic elements of art is the equality. You do not have to have a expensive camera to express your POV. And the most advance camera is not going to help a person who has no creative energy. Do you agree???

I think (and by a long shot) you are missing what is commonly referred to as, the point. There’s nobody claiming to have the ‘need for an expensive camera’, just a request for ideas on artistic context (and an extremely well written & poignant follow-up post).

As Lipstick has pointed out, the ISM's contributors are more than likely not professional photographers, who are doing their best within the physical constraints of their own limbs(s), locale & the availability of reflective material. Working under the difficulties of the imposed 'rules & guidelines' (eg: "one hand on the camera at all times"), I commend their courage and have been very impressed with some of their results.

Your project is not about the tool and how many angles you can get. Your POV is translated through your thoughts and instinct.

In this project, your POV is dictated by the length of your arm and perhaps the nearest available mirror. Content is translated through ‘thought & instinct’.

What make your photos stand out are the positive sense that rise above the everyday cliche, and a moment of authenticity. The most honest and pure!!!

There is little that is more authentic, honest & pure, than an one’s self-portrait, nude or otherwise.

You are right about some artists have shown more than just promising  talent. They deserve more then the  comments like        " Wow, what a pretty girl ", " your figure and face are beautiful!  thanks for the art... YUM " , "you're drop dead yummy "....... But lots of immature self representations have invited this kind of male gaze and cheapen other artists works.

Also annoying comments from some dirty old men...lame. They should go to prono sites.

I agree with you on the comments, though how you know the age of the men I don't know!  Perhaps you could post some of your own and help lift the standard.  In fact I encourage everybody to do that.

These comments have been referred to, yet I have not seen them. Is there a thread I've missed? Wherever they are, as Head queried, how do you know their age? Additionally, how do you know they’re men?

In fact, I’m actually impressed with the absence of them – a (free) public access forum on an adult website is a bold move indeed!

BTW, like it or not, ISM is a form of pornography (“the production or sale of sexually explicit films, magazines, or other materials” – Encarta® World English Dictionary) and pornography invariably attracts so called ‘dirty old men’. As such, I expect you’ll see many more of these supposed comments here for as long as this site exists.

I saw people's borden through their photos, the borden of sex, the borden of life, the borden of their virginas!!!

What are these words, 'borden' & 'virgina'? Do you mean ‘boredom’ & ‘vagina’?

Today's gallery featured angelXXX's poison. What did you see through all the photos? A fantasy like the leathal device??Sorry, I saw the artist spent probably no more than an hour to wip  out plenty of cheap shots. Oh, by the way, I will photograph my virgina just because that's cool. I will exhibit myself because some fast cash and the right to brag about it later on. Isn't it, isn't it?????

Nice way to crush someone's artistic spirit JW, WTG!

From what I saw, angelXXX has performed exactly to the task at hand. Whether you find her folio (or anyone’s for that matter) to be artistic or vulgar, is your opinion. To assume you know someone’s motives or the amount of effort they’ve endured is just plain wrong.

The creator of this project knows plenty of all this. I know I am not their ideal supporter. I feel strongly that this site wants to keep this trend going in order to attract more ppl who just want to see young girls' boobs & snatch. By using the mask as an ART project made them feel legit. The fakers probably just laughing at our conversations while counting the pretty greens.........
hahah, how ironic.

The trend as I see it, is exactly what the ‘creator’ has presumably intended all along and it fits well within the confines of ‘the project’ & the ‘project’s guidelines’ . Again, as Lipstick pointed out; this is clearly not an artist elite website.

If you refer to the main page, ISM is a bold statement about nudity, fame and the internet. This is Selfploitation.

JW, if you wish to critique someone’s work, respond to someone’s comments, or just offer advice – do it with clarity, ensure relevancy, and learn how to spell.

[Head: 1K apologies for the flame – my intention is not to lower, but lift the standards of the forum, as per your request and perhaps generate a spark in the tinder. It’s pretty quiet around here anywho. ]

Zeitgeist

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

geezus, that's a long post!

Zeitgeist

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

...and yes, I know how to spell Jesus

lawther

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

Today's gallery featured angelXXX's poison. What did you see through all the photos? A fantasy like the leathal device??Sorry, I saw the artist spent probably no more than an hour to wip  out plenty of cheap shots.

JW.

Could not disagree more.... these shots show a lot of innovation and creativity... maybe only an hour's work, but definitely a good set of pics.

By the way, the phrase "dirty old man" is not related to the age of the person!!!

cbguy

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

Jw, I need you to clear up some things for me as I'm not the brightest, is a prono site the same as a porno site???

As for your art argument, one of the best examples you could have used was the work of Natacha Merritt (digital diaries) who used the same type of concept, and to be totally honest most of the folios on this site are a lot better.

Hey jw, where did you hear about this site??? I take it you must have found it through some type of photography forum or an art based photography site judging by your overly harsh critique of the contributions by the models.

IMHO you don't give these models enough credit and your comments could be seen by many as more hurtfull than some of the comments left on the given models page.

Zeitgeist

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

By the way, the phrase "dirty old man" is not related to the age of the person!!!

lol! despite the fact it contains the word old?

"dirty old man: noun a man, usually of mature years, who is considered to have an unhealthy interest in sexual matters" - Macquarie Dictionary Book of Slang

The term 'dirty old man' actually predates the 20th century. In the late 1800's during an age of sex reform legislation, the scientific & medical community in order to promote longevity, concluded that it was 'unhealthy' for men and women over the age of 50 to have sex, beyond it's biological function of reproduction. This lead to the public notion that any man who in his golden years maintains an active sex-life, was 'dirty' and/or 'unhealthy'. Women obviously escaped this social stigma. (ever heard of a dirty old woman? )

The term continues to this day and is commonly referred to elderly men, particularly with an appetite for young girls.

Perhaps you're thinking of the term slimy filthy creep? That one doesn't appear to be age or gender specific!

Anywho, that's all pretty off topic...

Good call cbguy, Natacha Merritt is an excellent example sexuality, nudity & contemporary digital self portraiture!

lipsticgrrl

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

Hey joplinwu,

Sorry it's taken me so long to catch up with you, hope you get this message.

I'm actually a bit curious to know whether or not you stuck around after the last haul.

[We are all photographers. The most fantastic elements of art is the equality. You do not have to have a expensive camera to express your POV. And the most advance camera is not going to help a person who has no creative energy. Do you agree???]

I agree about the advanced camera not being the point.  But art loses its equality once you start putting paramaters on who's and artist and who isn't.  You're contradicting yourself a bit here.  Some of the girls seem to just want to be models, or glorify their vain self-image which is reflective of the media they consume and want to be a part of.  It doesn't mean it isn't art, does it?  It might seem a little uncultured though (if you ask me).

[Your project is not about the tool and how many angles you can get. Your POV is translated through your thoughts and instinct.
What make your photos stand out are the positive sense that rise above the everyday cliche, and a moment of authenticity. The most honest and pure!!!]

I agree with you about your POV.  But there are some people here with some creative spirit, even if it is totally vain.  I think we need to expose to these people what passive views they are having.  But can you really blame them?  I tend to feel sorry for them personally.

[You are right about some artists have shown more than just promising  talent. They deserve more then the  comments like        " Wow, what a pretty girl ", " your figure and face are beautiful!  thanks for the art... YUM " , "you're drop dead yummy "....... But lots of immature self representations have invited this kind of male gaze and cheapen other artists works.]

So let's swamp them with some culture!  What do you think?  We can take an artistic tour of the folios together and rip them to pieces if you like?  (Let me know where you start?) The artist knows the context they are putting their work in :$  And as for cheap comments.... jeuvenile minds.

[The creator of this project knows plenty of all this. I know I am not their ideal supporter.]

I think that's where you are wrong babe.

[I feel strongly that this site wants to keep this trend going in order to attract more ppl who just want to see young girls' boobs & snatch. By using the mask as an ART project made them feel legit. The fakers probably just laughing at our conversations while counting the pretty greens.........
hahah, how ironic.]

You know what,  I'm really starting to see signs of diversity though.  I don't think the art is a facade.  I think its a possibility.  The reason this site seems like a porn site, is because some of the models aren't making the most of the opportunity.  Girls are asked to get naked and they don't know what to do with themselves - and it's so easy to fall into stereotypes of women as sex objects.  It's a bit sad, don't you think?  But maybe the "facade" is to attract more artistic models?

By the way, checked out some Cindy Sherman works. I found her comments about self image are intriguing - her later works more grotesque and disturbing.

see you round the site?

lipstic.

lipsticgrrl

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

Hey joplin,

Sorry it's taken me so long to catch up with you, hope you get this message.

I'm actually a bit curious to know whether or not you stuck around after the last haul.

[We are all photographers. The most fantastic elements of art is the equality. You do not have to have a expensive camera to express your POV. And the most advance camera is not going to help a person who has no creative energy. Do you agree???]

I agree about the advanced camera not being the point.  But art loses its equality once you start putting paramaters on who's and artist and who isn't.  You're contradicting yourself a bit here.  Some of the girls seem to just want to be models, or glorify their vain self-image which is reflective of the media they consume and want to be a part of.  It doesn't mean it isn't art, does it?  It might seem a little uncultured though (if you ask me).

[Your project is not about the tool and how many angles you can get. Your POV is translated through your thoughts and instinct.
What make your photos stand out are the positive sense that rise above the everyday cliche, and a moment of authenticity. The most honest and pure!!!]

I agree with you about your POV.  But there are some people here with some creative spirit, even if it is totally vain.  I think we need to expose to these people what passive views they are having.  But can you really blame them?  I tend to feel sorry for them personally.

[You are right about some artists have shown more than just promising  talent. They deserve more then the  comments like        " Wow, what a pretty girl ", " your figure and face are beautiful!  thanks for the art... YUM " , "you're drop dead yummy "....... But lots of immature self representations have invited this kind of male gaze and cheapen other artists works.]

So let's swamp them with some culture.  What do you think?  We can take an artistic tour together and rip them to pieces if you like?  The real artists know the context their work is being put in.  And as for cheap comments.... jeuvenile minds.

[The creator of this project knows plenty of all this. I know I am not their ideal supporter.]

I think that's where you are wrong babe.

[I feel strongly that this site wants to keep this trend going in order to attract more ppl who just want to see young girls' boobs & snatch. By using the mask as an ART project made them feel legit. The fakers probably just laughing at our conversations while counting the pretty greens.........
hahah, how ironic.]

You know what,  I'm really starting to see signs of diversity though.  I don't think the art is a facade.  I think its a possibility.  The reason this site seems like a porn site, is because some of the models aren't making the most of the opportunity.  Girls are asked to get naked and they don't know what to do with themselves - and it's so easy to fall into stereotypes of women as sex objects.  It's a bit sad, don't you think?  But maybe the "facade" is to attract more artistic models?

By the way, checked out some Cindy Sherman works.  I found her comments about self image are intriguing - her later works more grotesque and disturbing.

so, if you want to follow me around the site - i'm in.

lipstic.

Head

Administrator

Re: I'm shooting myself!

[I feel strongly that this site wants to keep this trend going in order to attract more ppl who just want to see young girls' boobs & snatch. By using the mask as an ART project made them feel legit. The fakers probably just laughing at our conversations while counting the pretty greens.........
hahah, how ironic.]

At the moment we are rejecting about 10% of the folios we have paid for.  We'd like to be able to reject a lot more and still have enough to post a new artist daily.  Project_ISM is a virtual commercial gallery and like our bricks & mortar counterparts we have bills to pay so we sometimes hang folios we don't necessairly hold in high artistic esteem but know they will appeal to our sponsors.  Conversely we sometimes show work which we expect will be unpopular, but hopefully we hit a good balance.  The project is still in its infancy and I can assure you that as it grows and we receive more contributions, the standard of artistry will improve - and we'll take more risks.

Eve

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

[I feel strongly that this site wants to keep this trend going in order to attract more ppl who just want to see young girls' boobs & snatch. By using the mask as an ART project made them feel legit. The fakers probably just laughing at our conversations while counting the pretty greens.........
hahah, how ironic.]

Pictures of both my "boobs and snatch" have hung in legitimate galleries.  I make no apologies for photographing myself naked and calling it art.

I do, however, always enjoy a good debate about the nature of artistic expression, but it doesn't usually involve so much slang.

thylacine

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

[At the moment we are rejecting about 10% of the folios we have paid for.  We'd like to be able to reject a lot more and still have enough to post a new artist daily.  Project_ISM is a virtual commercial gallery and like our bricks & mortar counterparts we have bills to pay so we sometimes hang folios we don't necessairly hold in high artistic esteem but know they will appeal to our sponsors.  Conversely we sometimes show work which we expect will be unpopular, but hopefully we hit a good balance.  The project is still in its infancy and I can assure you that as it grows and we receive more contributions, the standard of artistry will improve - and we'll take more risks.]                       
     

What criteria did/do you use to reject that 10% of submitted folios? Are the pics out of focus, poorly framed, too repetitive, too explicit or not explicit enough? If you truly want to reflect women's photographic views of themselves should you be censoring any of the submitted pictures at all?

On a personal note I thought the recent set of pics of a girl smearing herself in chocolate were absolutely vile. But I wouldn't want to stop any similar sets being posted or anything else that's not to my taste.

On a related point what problems are there for this site working, as you do, in what is now said to be the most heavily censored country in the western world?

Head

Administrator

Re: I'm shooting myself!

What criteria did/do you use to reject that 10% of submitted folios? Are the pics out of focus, poorly framed, too repetitive, too explicit or not explicit enough?

Yes, all of those.

If you truly want to reflect women's photographic views of themselves should you be censoring any of the submitted pictures at all?

There are only 7 days in a week.  It's not censorship, it's editing.

On a related point what problems are there for this site working, as you do, in what is now said to be the most heavily censored country in the western world?

You're referring to Australia?  There aren't generally censorship problems for artistic nudes.  When 4300 people got naked in public for Spencer Tunick the only guy who got police attention was a (fully clothed) religious zealot trying to hold up the shoot.

kitten

Member

Re: I'm shooting myself!

"There are only 7 days in a week.  It's not censorship, it's editing."

What about letting the artists choose the images they definitely DON'T want to see of themselves on site. That's the weirdest thing about this project - handing over all yr unedited snaps without being able to take shots back...but just a thought. in a way not having the control to self censor is one of the most refreshing things about ISM.