#1 December 3rd, 2004 02:58 AM

Angelene

Member

transphobia sucks.

I'm really disappointed in the comments on the set that just went up.  such as:

greenleaf says...
It seems this is twice in one week we have gotten an adams apple and a carefully tucked penis. Beautiful or not, it's not the place for it.

In the first place, we don't know if the artist is a transwoman or not.  But in the second place, WHO CARES?!  IShotMyself is about veiwing the beauty of the female form.  Just because your definition of "female" doesn't match other people's doesn't mean you have to be a jack about it and tell her she doesn't belong here.  Head decides who does and does not belong here.  There is no need for rude comments like that which make girls who may be perfectly nice (and who may or may not be trans) feel unwelcome.

liz

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

I'm really disappointed in the comments on the set that just went up.  such as:

greenleaf says...
It seems this is twice in one week we have gotten an adams apple and a carefully tucked penis. Beautiful or not, it's not the place for it.

In the first place, we don't know if [the artist] is a transwoman or not.  But in the second place, WHO CARES?!  IShotMyself is about veiwing the beauty of the female form.  Just because your definition of "female" doesn't match other people's doesn't mean you have to be a jack about it and tell her she doesn't belong here.  Head decides who does and does not belong here.  There is no need for rude comments like that which make girls who may be perfectly nice (and who may or may not be trans) feel unwelcome.

I agree, and I thank you for posting this.  I think it's very unfortunate that people need to attack women who may not fit the completely "female" stereotype - because maybe they have a bit of an adam's apple, or what have you.  That is simply gender stereotyping, which is one of the things this site is trying to go beyond, I think.

However, let's say that maybe a few of the contributors are trans-women, that does not make them any less female, or any less worthy of gettin' their gear off and shooting themselves.  Maybe people out there don't know anything about trans-folk, or don't know anyone who is trans, but it's not like you wake up one day and go "I think I'll change my sex today, schedule the surgery!"  It's a long and agonizing process, and I seriously doubt that anyone who didn't feel with their whole body and soul that they were the "wrong" sex, would go through the pain and struggle. 

A couple of other thoughts that I had were:  maybe these guys were turned on by [that artist], then decided that maybe she was a he, and felt that silly typical guy response at getting turned on by another guy, then felt the need to attack to clear themselves of that.  Or, perhaps they are grumpy at not getting any spread eagled shots, that is, no close-up pussy.  Of course, if a girl doesn't want to show every lip and fold, she can't be a real woman, right?  Maybe not the case, but just a couple of thoughts that ran through my head.

I think that any negative comments are just mean and unnecessary.  The women on this site are putting themselves in a truly vulnerable position, and there's no reason to be hurtful.  If you don't like what you see, you don't need to comment.  I think the virtual anonymity of sponsors makes it easier to say something nasty, and that's just not cool.  No woman needs to be told that you think she's unattractive, or whatever.  She's heard it enough her whole life from all the other judgers.  If you have a truly monumental problem or objection, take it to Head,  don't mar a woman's comments, which are a place to tell her how magnificent you think she is!  not a place to air your grievances.

Finally, as a bit of a side note, ISM doesn't just take photos from any old Jill off the street.  You have to submit ID, proof of age, etc.  My ID states my sex, and I would assume that others' do too...so, there ya go.

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"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
            -Emma Goldman

Head

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

Thankyou. 

I've deleted two of the comments from the folios in question and asked the writers not to post anything they wouldn't say to a woman's face.  I've also edited the two previous posts in this thread to anonymize the artist.

No doubt somebody will complain about their free speech rights being infringed or some such crap.  Write to me guys, I'll refund your sub so you can buy a sack, pull it over your head and stand on a street corner randomly insulting peeps.  Drop us a line from gaol or hospital, wherever you wind up.

BTW both artists are female according to their photo ID.

tsunami

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

Well done Head, you are indeed a gentleman and a scholar as they say. Personally I thought the speculative comments incredibly rude and thoughtless.

Three cheers for Mr Head!

Tsunami

Thankyou. 

I've deleted two of the comments from the folios in question and asked the writers not to post anything they wouldn't say to a woman's face.  I've also edited the two previous posts in this thread to anonymize the artist.

No doubt somebody will complain about their free speech rights being infringed or some such crap.  Write to me guys, I'll refund your sub so you can buy a sack, pull it over your head and stand on a street corner randomly insulting peeps.  Drop us a line from gaol or hospital, wherever you wind up.

BTW both artists are female according to their photo ID.

mcam2000

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

I have nothing against trans nudity or male nudity. The idea of self shooting is amazing. that's why I come here. I think everyone must have respect regarding all the artists sharing their bodies. In my opinion I want to see nude male selfshooting too, since I consider this an aspect of art, even if I'm a str8 male. Do you know the David of Michelangelo?That is a male nude but is great art. The rules of the sites dont allow male to self shoot. But also the rules of the site call everyone posting here artist and neither actor nor model. So pls behave and respect the art.

Belgareth

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

I agree, and I thank you for posting this.  I think it's very unfortunate that people need to attack women who may not fit the completely "female" stereotype - because maybe they have a bit of an adam's apple, or what have you.  That is simply gender stereotyping, which is one of the things this site is trying to go beyond, I think.

However, let's say that maybe a few of the contributors are trans-women, that does not make them any less female, or any less worthy of gettin' their gear off and shooting themselves.  Maybe people out there don't know anything about trans-folk, or don't know anyone who is trans, but it's not like you wake up one day and go "I think I'll change my sex today, schedule the surgery!"  It's a long and agonizing process, and I seriously doubt that anyone who didn't feel with their whole body and soul that they were the "wrong" sex, would go through the pain and struggle. 

A couple of other thoughts that I had were:  maybe these guys were turned on by [that artist], then decided that maybe she was a he, and felt that silly typical guy response at getting turned on by another guy, then felt the need to attack to clear themselves of that.  Or, perhaps they are grumpy at not getting any spread eagled shots, that is, no close-up pussy.  Of course, if a girl doesn't want to show every lip and fold, she can't be a real woman, right?  Maybe not the case, but just a couple of thoughts that ran through my head.

I think that any negative comments are just mean and unnecessary.  The women on this site are putting themselves in a truly vulnerable position, and there's no reason to be hurtful.  If you don't like what you see, you don't need to comment.  I think the virtual anonymity of sponsors makes it easier to say something nasty, and that's just not cool.  No woman needs to be told that you think she's unattractive, or whatever.  She's heard it enough her whole life from all the other judgers.  If you have a truly monumental problem or objection, take it to Head,  don't mar a woman's comments, which are a place to tell her how magnificent you think she is!  not a place to air your grievances.

Finally, as a bit of a side note, ISM doesn't just take photos from any old Jill off the street.  You have to submit ID, proof of age, etc.  My ID states my sex, and I would assume that others' do too...so, there ya go.

As always, I find it dificult to follow any posting you make to this forum Liz. You hardly ever leave a stone unturned! My only addition is to say that gender and sexuality are a state of mind. Even nature makes mistakes, if it didn't we wouldn't need words like androgynous. Who is to say what to "real" gender of a individual is when the reproductive system can't decide!

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liz

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

As always, I find it dificult to follow any posting you make to this forum Liz.

Heh - when I read this first sentence my feelings were starting to get hurt because I thought you meant you couldn't follow what I was saying, as in, it didn't make any sense.
But then I read on....and smiled.
Ha.

---

"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
            -Emma Goldman

Merricat

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

Thankyou. 

I've deleted two of the comments from the folios in question and asked the writers not to post anything they wouldn't say to a woman's face.  I've also edited the two previous posts in this thread to anonymize the artist.

No doubt somebody will complain about their free speech rights being infringed or some such crap.  Write to me guys, I'll refund your sub so you can buy a sack, pull it over your head and stand on a street corner randomly insulting peeps.  Drop us a line from gaol or hospital, wherever you wind up.

BTW both artists are female according to their photo ID.

Thank you for taking care of this, because by being so good about it you make this place more comfortable and friendly for everyone involved. Free speech is great, but it's also good to moderate, and I'm really glad you did in this case.

So, thanks again

BillyBear

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

okay, but know this: It's not a "phobia." It's a PREFERENCE, and, as such, is quite normal.

Merricat

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

okay, but know this: It's not a "phobia." It's a PREFERENCE, and, as such, is quite normal.

It's a preference to not be attracted to certain people. But when people feel the need to be insulting, it's pretty fair to say that that's an expression of phobia.

BillyBear

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

...but, all too often these days, "insult" is interpreted through political correctness.

napthene

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

...but, all too often these days, "insult" is interpreted through political correctness.

You are confusing the feeling with the expression of that feeling. Nobody here is saying that it's wrong to feel a given way. What they are taking issue with is the expression of that feeling.

If a person doesn't like something, that's their lookout. When they post publically slanging a portfolio because they don't like it, they should expect to get called on it, because that crosses the line between private dislike and public attack.

Belgareth

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

Heh - when I read this first sentence my feelings were starting to get hurt because I thought you meant you couldn't follow what I was saying, as in, it didn't make any sense.
But then I read on....and smiled.
Ha.

Just goes to show how initial judgement can sometimes be wrong ;-) I have the greatest respect for posters like yourself - you always make sense and even though I don't always agree 100% with you, I can usually manage 95%.

Keep smiling - it looks good on you :-)

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BillyBear

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

Whether it's an "attack" is a matter of interpretation.

gtrvox

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

It's a preference to not be attracted to certain people. But when people feel the need to be insulting, it's pretty fair to say that that's an expression of phobia.

Phobia is a fear. Do you feel that this person's remarks are an expression of fear?

Torture_Garden

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

I'm new so feel free to flame and flog me.

I think that the bottom line is, yes, you do have the freedom to say what you will but by the same token, use some discretion with it. As the ol' saying goes... "if you don't have anything nice to say..."

just my .02c

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James
--
...and when the day arrives I'll become the sky and I'll become the sea and the sea will come to kiss me for I am going home...

BillyBear

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

Trouble is, the saying nowadays is more like "If you can't say something politically correct..."
I fail to see why it's a problem for people to express an opinion.

BillyBear

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

I'm really disappointed in the comments on the set that just went up.  such as:

greenleaf says...
It seems this is twice in one week we have gotten an adams apple and a carefully tucked penis. Beautiful or not, it's not the place for it.

In the first place, we don't know if the artist is a transwoman or not.  But in the second place, WHO CARES?!  .

Obviously some do. Perhaps you didn't look closely at the pictures in question, if at all. My problem is with people immediately responding by calling it a "PHOBIA." That AIN'T what it is!

Angelene

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

Obviously some do. Perhaps you didn't look closely at the pictures in question, if at all. My problem is with people immediately responding by calling it a "PHOBIA." That AIN'T what it is!

It is a phobia.  People generally attack what they are afraid of .  If it were merely a preference, the comment would either have never appeared or it may have been phrased in the form of a polite querry as to the "rules" for Artists accepted to ISM.  Instead it was rude and exclusionary (people also seek to exclude or run away from that which they fear), again, had it been a preference they might have simply stated their dislike rather than insist that this place was the wrong place.  You can clearly see how this comment seeks to erradicate something which is making them uncomfortable and afraid (which, is *not* the same as perference, for example, straight men are not my cup of tea, but I didn't complain when another site I worked for added male models, it's not my site and I can choose not to look, or simply appreciate them as a naked person in good lighting or what have you).

In a final, slightly related note, saying you no longer want to be politically correct is saying that you no longer wish to be sensitive to the needs and feelings of others and if this is the case I certainly wouldn't want to have you to *my* house for dinner.  And lastly, freedom of speech is a wholly Western concept in its origin... and guess what?  This is the internet.  Futhermore it's a business.  A cool, post-modern one, granted, but definitely not the same thing as some sort of democratic governmental structure in which you have god or state-given "rights" to do much of anything.  Like or not, Head can and will accept Artists, moniter comments and postings, and do as he sees fit with his business.  We must respect his decisions because, when it comes down to it, he runs the place.

Cheers,
Angelene

PS: Liz: You, I like.

gtrvox

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

Like or not, Head can and will accept Artists, moniter comments and postings, and do as he sees fit with his business.  We must respect his decisions because, when it comes down to it, he runs the place.

Cheers,
Angelene

PS: Liz: You, I like.

You're absolutely right: it is a business. In a business the owner ('head') must pay heed to what his customers prefer if he is to thrive. Of course, if money is no object or it's a vanity project - one is free to do as one pleases. But ultimately, if the site presented material that would drive clients away, then it's counter-productive to the business.

I agree there is no reason to be rude. Preferences can be stated but honestly, expressing dismay or saying something "doesn't belong" does not imply a phobia. You are analyzing this person - you don't know them and cannot know whether this is fear-based or not. Even if it is fear-based, it is still not a phobia, like a fear of spiders, or elevators.

Let's refrain from  jumping on people for voicing their opinion. Let's point out to them them we disagree. No need to label them with a "phobia". You don't mind the pictures, he/she does. End of story

gtr

liz

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

Umm....I think you folks are missing the point a bit with the argument of "it's not a phobia."  We're not talking phobia in the sense that you're going to start crying and shaking and wet yourself when you encounter what (or who!) ever it is that has "phobia" attached.  We're talking phobia in the sense that you must attack something "strange" and different.

Words like homophobia or xenophobia or transphobia or fill-in-the-blank phobia do not imply that gays or jews or trans-people haunt your dreams and make you wake up in a cold sweat.  It's a term, used more to describe a way that a people has been unjustly treated, rather than to describe a condition that a person may have (like claustrophobia).  Am I the only one who had to take a human relations class freshman year of college?

And, as for the whole notion of political correctness, I'll grant that in some cases it has become a bit silly.  But, as Angelene stated, the concept of political correctness originally came about for the purpose of "be[ing] sensitive to the needs and feelings of others."  It's about respect above all else.  It's not about censorship or telling you that you can't have an opinion, it's about expressing yourself in a way that respects the inherent dignity and worthiness of every single human being, regardless of any labels that can be slapped upon them.

It makes my heart hurt that people would actually be pissed off about not being able to express hurtful and bigoted opinions.  If you wanna hate, I guess I can't do anything about that, but keep your bile to yourself.  Once again, I must reiterate that a woman's comment section is not the place for remarks like we saw a few days ago.  Last time I checked, this wasn't "Hot or Not," the women are not on here to be judged, for you to (perhaps not in so many words) tell them that you wish they had just kept their dern clothes on.

This is a place for women to express themselves, their creativity, and their sexuality, in a way that in unique and their own.  And we, lucky bastards that we are, get to peek in on that.  You'd think that would be enough to garner some respect.

p.s.  Angelene:  I like you too!  Thanks for fighting so eloquently for respect and dignity for all.  Nothing's sexier.

You're absolutely right: it is a business. In a business the owner ('head') must pay heed to what his customers prefer if he is to thrive. Of course, if money is no object or it's a vanity project - one is free to do as one pleases. But ultimately, if the site presented material that would drive clients away, then it's counter-productive to the business.

I agree there is no reason to be rude. Preferences can be stated but honestly, expressing dismay or saying something "doesn't belong" does not imply a phobia. You are analyzing this person - you don't know them and cannot know whether this is fear-based or not. Even if it is fear-based, it is still not a phobia, like a fear of spiders, or elevators.

Let's refrain from  jumping on people for voicing their opinion. Let's point out to them them we disagree. No need to label them with a "phobia". You don't mind the pictures, he/she does. End of story

gtr

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"If I can't dance, I don't want to be part of your revolution."
            -Emma Goldman

BillyBear

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

You couldn't be more wrong! YOU saying it's a "phobia" does NOT make it so. Look at the pics, okay? "She" has a clearly visible, quite thick moustache. "She" probably did these pics in an attempt to solicit adverse reaction, and start this very kind of discussion. I think the original posters point was that if we want transgender pics, we would seek out a transgender site.

Angelene

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

You couldn't be more wrong! YOU saying it's a "phobia" does NOT make it so. Look at the pics, okay? "She" has a clearly visible, quite thick moustache. "She" probably did these pics in an attempt to solicit adverse reaction, and start this very kind of discussion. I think the original posters point was that if we want transgender pics, we would seek out a transgender site.

Wow.  I think that stands out as an unintelligent rebuttal.  Everybody else's at least made sense and was less reactionary and more argumentative.  First of all, the radical notion that transgendered people are as normal as other folk and don't necessarily need their own websites might be new to you, but it isn't to everyone.  And also, your use of "she" and the way you are blatantly attacking this woman (who odds are is not even transgender in the first place as there are many... *many*... MANY biological women with moustaches and hair in all sorts of other places as well) is absolutely ridiculous and just shows exactly how terrified you are of someone different than yourself.  This, more than anything, I think, illustrates my point about the difference between a preference and a phobia.  The gentlemen with the preferences simply stated them in this thread and didn't resort to personal attacks, while you, well, did.

Merricat

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

You couldn't be more wrong! YOU saying it's a "phobia" does NOT make it so. Look at the pics, okay? "She" has a clearly visible, quite thick moustache. "She" probably did these pics in an attempt to solicit adverse reaction, and start this very kind of discussion. I think the original posters point was that if we want transgender pics, we would seek out a transgender site.

She's not a "she", she's a she. The use of quotation marks is ridiculous and unaccepting.

And I'm with liz and angelene. It IS phobia to spew bile at people just because you don't happen to like their look or their sexuality or how they play with gender. Keeping that bile to yourself isn't political correctness, it's this concept we have called "tact". I don't understand why anyone would WANT to say something hurtful on a woman's folio comments.

BillyBear

Member

Re: transphobia sucks.

Wow.  I think that stands out as an unintelligent rebuttal.  .

Yeah, gee, I'm really sorry. I keep forgetting that only you ""enlightened ones"" are entitled to opinions.